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MGMAT test question

by ayushiiitm » Thu Jun 10, 2010 9:48 am
Before its independence in 1947, Britain ruled India as a colony and they would relinquish power only after a long struggle by the native people.
A. Before its independence in 1947, Britain ruled India as a colony and they would relinquish power
B. Before independence in 1947, Britain had ruled India as a colony and relinquished power
C. Before its independence in 1947, India was ruled by Britain as a colony and they relinquished power
D. Before independence in 1947, India had been ruled as a colony by Britain, which relinquished power
E. Before independence in 1947, India had been a colony of the British, who relinquished power

MY TAKE:
A and B out: modifier before its independence in 1947 modifies Britain
C and D out: they and which respectively could refer to India or Britain in the sentence
E:should also be wrong since who could modify either India or Britain

Now this is a standard question from MGMAT, so no doubt of authenticity.

I have the following doubts:

1. Why 'who' in E does not create a problem (isnt it also used as a relative pronoun)
2. Why use of 'its' is correct in A and C. (isnt there a rule that possessive pronoun should not be used before stating the noun that it is referring. I have adapted this rule from a OG10 problem 'teachings of Sikhs', where a 'those' was used)
The explanation for this question states The exclusion of the pronoun its in the beginning of the sentence (see answer choices A and C) is incidental. The sentence would have been correct with the pronoun its as well.


Lot of doubt here. Experts help please

OA is E
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by RumpelThickSkin » Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:19 am
Didn't like any of the answer choices I picked E out of elimination

A & B : voilate SVA ..

C : AGAIN SVA and they seems to nonsensically suggest that India relinquished power

D : which refers to Britian I do not like this construction

E: i thought who was used for people
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by ayushiiitm » Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:22 am
Hey Rumpel, seems we are on the same ground.

Coz the level of dissection that you have done, was already done.

Yes, 'who' is used with people but then correct answer is E, and thats why this post
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by FightWithGMAT » Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:00 am
ayushiiitm wrote:Before its independence in 1947, Britain ruled India as a colony and they would relinquish power only after a long struggle by the native people.
A. Before its independence in 1947, Britain ruled India as a colony and they would relinquish power
B. Before independence in 1947, Britain had ruled India as a colony and relinquished power
C. Before its independence in 1947, India was ruled by Britain as a colony and they relinquished power
D. Before independence in 1947, India had been ruled as a colony by Britain, which relinquished power
E. Before independence in 1947, India had been a colony of the British, who relinquished power

MY TAKE:
A and B out: modifier before its independence in 1947 modifies Britain
C and D out: they and which respectively could refer to India or Britain in the sentence
E:should also be wrong since who could modify either India or Britain

Now this is a standard question from MGMAT, so no doubt of authenticity.

I have the following doubts:

1. Why 'who' in E does not create a problem (isnt it also used as a relative pronoun)
2. Why use of 'its' is correct in A and C. (isnt there a rule that possessive pronoun should not be used before stating the noun that it is referring. I have adapted this rule from a OG10 problem 'teachings of Sikhs', where a 'those' was used)
The explanation for this question states The exclusion of the pronoun its in the beginning of the sentence (see answer choices A and C) is incidental. The sentence would have been correct with the pronoun its as well.


Lot of doubt here. Experts help please

OA is E
Who can be used for collective noun of living things such as army, team, country, state etc.
Now, come to the other doubt:

Preposition + noun + , + who / which has always been a curious topic of debate, and I have not seen a satisfactory and concrete explanation for this anywhere. Every forum suggests that we should see the contextual meaning of the modifier.
Sometimes, we have seen that who / which points to noun before the preposition, even in OG, but most of times we use Noun just before the comma.

Experts can throw some light on this.

Third issue that you have is the usage of "its"

Possessive pronoun and then noun is OK.
but, possessive noun and then pronoun is not acceptable.

Before its independence in 1947, India was ....OK
Before India's independence in 1947, it was................NOT OK
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by loveusonu » Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:02 am
I find nothing wrong with E.
Who is used for 'British'. British are not any object, but a group of people only. To me it doesn't violate anything.

A/B are out due to modifier issue because its India who got independence and not British.
C: 'They' is ambigious it can refer to anything India or British.

D: which, by default, refers to immediate noun so which can also be correct. I can only see 1 problem with D i.e "ruled as a colony" doesn't make sense to me.
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by ayushiiitm » Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:54 am
@Fighting with GMAT
still do not understand your 'its' rule

Btw to the OG question i was referring to is like this

Like those of most religions, Sikhism has codified its teaching in a book >>>

is wrong because A pronoun like those must refer to an already expressed noun

So does the rule applies to its as well

@loveusonu:
Ok i just read the sentence more carefully.
U mean to suggest that India is a proper noun, while British is the collective noun for which 'who' is used.

I think I agree on that
Thanks

Now the second 'its' doubt remains
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by RumpelThickSkin » Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:28 pm
loveusonu wrote:I find nothing wrong with E.
Who is used for 'British'. British are not any object, but a group of people only. To me it doesn't violate anything.

D: which, by default, refers to immediate noun so which can also be correct. I can only see 1 problem with D i.e "ruled as a colony" doesn't make sense to me.
Agree nice and succint Sonu! well done
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by loveusonu » Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:49 pm
ayushiiitm wrote:
Now the second 'its' doubt remains
Well i intentionally didn't answer that bcoz I don't want to confuse you. But the rule is not that possive pronoun refer to only possesive nouns. Its complicacy is much more than that and GMAC for sure blindly doesn't follow this rule.

If you could go though the explanation by 800bob in the link, you will definitely figure it out:https://www.urch.com/forums/gmat-sentenc ... oison.html

Another ref: https://www.beatthegmat.com/pronouns-pos ... 53465.html

Hope that helps.
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by Stacey Koprince » Tue Jun 15, 2010 12:59 pm
Received a PM asking me to reply. ayushiiitm, I'm glad that you wrote out your thoughts in your original post; a lot of people don't do that and they should!

Your reasoning for eliminating A and B is right.

Your reasoning for eliminating C is possibly right - not specific enough. Your reasoning for D, and E is not right.

Your reasoning for C is on the right track, I think, but it's more complicated than what you wrote. C reads (in full):
Before its independence in 1947, India was ruled by Britain as a colony and they relinquished power only after a long struggle by the native people.

The word "and" indicates parallelism. The two parallel parts are "India was ruled..." and "they relinquished power..."

The structural expectation here is that the pronoun "they," which is functioning as the subject of the second clause, should refer to the subject of the first clause, India. India is a country. It is a single country. It is singular. You can't refer to the singular India with the plural pronoun they.

Further, the logical expectation is that the pronoun "they" refers to the British people, who are the ones who relinquished power. This is also a problem because the British (people) don't appear in the sentence. Only the country Britain appears in the sentence - and Britain is again just one country, so it is singular.

Phew. Okay, on to D. The setup "comma which" is a noun modifier setup. Based on this placement, it CANNOT refer to the subject, India. It must refer to the immediately preceding noun or noun phrase. In this case, the previous noun is "Britain." The "comma which" modifier, then, refers to Britain. There is nothing wrong with this part of the sentence.

This choice, honestly, is the weakest in terms of being able to eliminate - it could be better written. The problem is "ruled as a colony by Britain." When a prepositional phrase follows a noun, as "by Britain" follows the noun "colony," all we know for sure is that the prepositional phrase modifies that noun. The verb in the sentence ("ruled," in this case) does not necessarily apply to the prepositional phrase. So, for example "India had been ruled as a colony by Britain" could actually mean "India was NEARby Britain, and separately India was ruled as a colony, and the sentence doesn't mention who actually did the ruling."

Choice E uses a "comma who" setup, which is similar to the "comma which" setup described above in that it refers to the immediately preceding noun or noun phrase. In this case, that noun is "British." The British are people, so it is appropriate (indeed, required) to use the relative pronoun "who" to discuss these people.
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by uwhusky » Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:04 pm
Stacey Koprince wrote:Received a PM asking me to reply. ayushiiitm, I'm glad that you wrote out your thoughts in your original post; a lot of people don't do that and they should!
I wonder how many PMs you receive per day!
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by tanviet » Wed Jun 16, 2010 2:59 am
PREPOSITION PHRASE MUST REFER TO TOUCHING NOUN

my god, Stacey

I want to fly to your place to meet you in person.
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by ayushiiitm » Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:24 am
Thanks Stacey

Got to know so many new things ...thanks again


Stacey, can you look into my other doubt too


The explanation for this question states The exclusion of the pronoun its in the beginning of the sentence (see answer choices A and C) is incidental. The sentence would have been correct with the pronoun its as well.

Why use of 'its' is correct. (isnt there a rule that possessive pronoun should not be used before stating the noun that it is referring. I have adapted this rule from a OG10 problem 'teachings of Sikhs', where a 'those' was used)

The sentence choice was like this in OG10

Like those of most religions, Sikhism has codified its teaching in a book >>>

is wrong because A pronoun like those must refer to an already expressed noun

So does the rule applies to its as well
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by FightWithGMAT » Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:04 am
Stacey Koprince wrote:Received a PM asking me to reply. ayushiiitm, I'm glad that you wrote out your thoughts in your original post; a lot of people don't do that and they should!

Your reasoning for eliminating A and B is right.

Your reasoning for eliminating C is possibly right - not specific enough. Your reasoning for D, and E is not right.

Your reasoning for C is on the right track, I think, but it's more complicated than what you wrote. C reads (in full):
Before its independence in 1947, India was ruled by Britain as a colony and they relinquished power only after a long struggle by the native people.

The word "and" indicates parallelism. The two parallel parts are "India was ruled..." and "they relinquished power..."

The structural expectation here is that the pronoun "they," which is functioning as the subject of the second clause, should refer to the subject of the first clause, India. India is a country. It is a single country. It is singular. You can't refer to the singular India with the plural pronoun they.

Further, the logical expectation is that the pronoun "they" refers to the British people, who are the ones who relinquished power. This is also a problem because the British (people) don't appear in the sentence. Only the country Britain appears in the sentence - and Britain is again just one country, so it is singular.

Phew. Okay, on to D. The setup "comma which" is a noun modifier setup. Based on this placement, it CANNOT refer to the subject, India. It must refer to the immediately preceding noun or noun phrase. In this case, the previous noun is "Britain." The "comma which" modifier, then, refers to Britain. There is nothing wrong with this part of the sentence.

This choice, honestly, is the weakest in terms of being able to eliminate - it could be better written. The problem is "ruled as a colony by Britain." When a prepositional phrase follows a noun, as "by Britain" follows the noun "colony," all we know for sure is that the prepositional phrase modifies that noun. The verb in the sentence ("ruled," in this case) does not necessarily apply to the prepositional phrase. So, for example "India had been ruled as a colony by Britain" could actually mean "India was NEARby Britain, and separately India was ruled as a colony, and the sentence doesn't mention who actually did the ruling."

Choice E uses a "comma who" setup, which is similar to the "comma which" setup described above in that it refers to the immediately preceding noun or noun phrase. In this case, that noun is "British." The British are people, so it is appropriate (indeed, required) to use the relative pronoun "who" to discuss these people.
Stacey / Ron

I did not get this preposition phrase should modify the noun just before it.

He shot the tiger by gun...what is wrong with this????

the sentence still means that He shot by gun.
It can not mean that He shot the tiger who was sitting by gun.......I am confused now.
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by martin.jonson007 » Wed Jun 16, 2010 6:36 am
Can somebody explain what is wrong in D option if somebody really understood...
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by Stacey Koprince » Wed Jun 16, 2010 8:33 am
I wonder how many PMs you receive per day!
A lot. :)

When we have <noun> <prepositional phrase>, all we know FOR SURE is that the prepositional phrase refers to the noun. It is also POSSIBLE that the prepositional phrase applies to a verb preceding that noun... but it is not REQUIRED.

So, yes, that "by Britain" CAN mean that Britain ruled India... but it doesn't necessarily have to mean that. This is the kind of thing that an OG explanation would call "awkward" - and if you can avoid awkwardness, you do. I called choice D the weakest-written choice for a reason: it's becoming increasingly rare for the real test to rely only on awkwardness and potential ambiguity, as this choice does. So I wouldn't worry about this one too much.
PREPOSITION PHRASE MUST REFER TO TOUCHING NOUN
Careful with generalizing here. A prepositional phrase can be a noun modifier. It can also be an adverbial modifier. If there is a noun immediately before the prepositional phrase (with nothing else in between, not even a comma), then the prepositional phrase is supposed to refer to the noun, yes.
He shot the tiger by gun...what is wrong with this????
The idiom, for starters. You shoot something with a gun, not by gun. :)

Take a look at OG Verbal 1st Edition SC#38, choice D (if you have that book).
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