shocked to see a drop in quant from 47 to 43

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by lunarpower » Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:09 am
sachindia wrote:Keeping an error log helps a lot
well, sure, that kind of thing can be valuable -- as long as you actually do something with it.

i.e.

* just realizing/recording what kind of mistakes you made --> not useful

* realizing/recording what kind of mistakes you made, and then changing the way you do things so that you don't make the same mistakes again --> useful.

in one sense this point is really obvious -- but a lot of people ignore it, especially when it comes to "silly" or "routine" mistakes.
for instance, let's say someone does some step of arithmetic/algebra incorrectly. the problem is, most people just say "oh darn, I did xxxxxx wrong, I feel so dumb" and then just move on to the next thing.
that's not going to accomplish anything. what's going to accomplish improvement is taking the next step -- changing whatever techniques/behaviors/etc. actually caused the problem in the first place!
-- if the person made the mistake during "mental math", then the plan could be "ok, no more mental math -- i need to write down all the steps when i do stuff like that."
-- if the person made the mistake because of a lack of organization, then the plan could be "ok, from now on i'm going to organize my work like _____."
etc.
the point is, you won't derive any value just from identifying errors; you have to react to those errors, by actually changing the ways in which you do stuff.
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.

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by lunarpower » Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:15 am
duongthang --
duongthang wrote:then I realize that I do not focus on og math. the math question, specifically the hard questions from prep companies harm us more then help. my experience is to focus on og questions. even we do not need to focus on gmatprep questions. gmatprep contain many hard questions which we can ignore and still get 48. but we have to do and redo the og questions very well. last time I get 44 I see that I can not do some easy questions similar to og questions

the only extra thing we , non native , have to do is to read a lot. we need to read a lot before we can read gmat passage. we do not need to study sc cr and math questions outside gmat og books. sc questions in og book is terriblly nice but we normally underestimate it. there are many question in og 10, 11, 12 and 13. some sc in og 10 focus only on grammar and idiom and so we should ignore.
these two paragraphs are very insightful.
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by sachindia » Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:55 am
lunarpower wrote:
sachindia wrote:Keeping an error log helps a lot
well, sure, that kind of thing can be valuable -- as long as you actually do something with it.

i.e.

* just realizing/recording what kind of mistakes you made --> not useful

* realizing/recording what kind of mistakes you made, and then changing the way you do things so that you don't make the same mistakes again --> useful.

in one sense this point is really obvious -- but a lot of people ignore it, especially when it comes to "silly" or "routine" mistakes.
for instance, let's say someone does some step of arithmetic/algebra incorrectly. the problem is, most people just say "oh darn, I did xxxxxx wrong, I feel so dumb" and then just move on to the next thing.
that's not going to accomplish anything. what's going to accomplish improvement is taking the next step -- changing whatever techniques/behaviors/etc. actually caused the problem in the first place!
-- if the person made the mistake during "mental math", then the plan could be "ok, no more mental math -- i need to write down all the steps when i do stuff like that."
-- if the person made the mistake because of a lack of organization, then the plan could be "ok, from now on i'm going to organize my work like _____."
etc.
the point is, you won't derive any value just from identifying errors; you have to react to those errors, by actually changing the ways in which you do stuff.
Hi Ron,
can't agree more with what you said above.. The log helped me identify a fundamental issue/factor in DS that I was ignoring. I saw the pattern of mistakes and the reasons for them. I wasn't thinking about the scope of variables and so I was assuming the scope and going wrong.
I remember reading an article by a folk from GMAC who talked about DS mentioning the importance of sticking to the scope and not assuming anything in DS. This helped a lot.

I also recognized the importance to sticking to what IS asked. There will for sure be traps set if you skip this step.

As I continue to be intrigued by the different types of silly mistakes I am committing, I realize that most of them happen on those that we think we are confident of but are actually over-confident. Trick to avoid the silly mistakes ,I believe, is giving the same amount of importance to simple deductions such as addition and subtractions as much as for deductions that involve exponents.
Regards,
Sach

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by lunarpower » Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:43 am
sachindia wrote:As I continue to be intrigued by the different types of silly mistakes I am committing, I realize that most of them happen on those that we think we are confident of but are actually over-confident. Trick to avoid the silly mistakes ,I believe, is giving the same amount of importance to simple deductions such as addition and subtractions as much as for deductions that involve exponents.
there's a reason why the math on this test doesn't go beyond first-year algebra and geometry ... and this is it.
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by sachindia » Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:21 am
lunarpower wrote:
sachindia wrote:As I continue to be intrigued by the different types of silly mistakes I am committing, I realize that most of them happen on those that we think we are confident of but are actually over-confident. Trick to avoid the silly mistakes ,I believe, is giving the same amount of importance to simple deductions such as addition and subtractions as much as for deductions that involve exponents.
there's a reason why the math on this test doesn't go beyond first-year algebra and geometry ... and this is it.
Thanks Ron.... If it get it correctly, thin line between confidence and over-confidence is tested on this test?
Regards,
Sach

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by lunarpower » Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:44 am
sachindia wrote:Thanks Ron.... If it get it correctly, thin line between confidence and over-confidence is tested on this test?
that's not entirely what i meant, though it's a valid observation -- there are a lot of "trap answers" there, waiting for people who don't exercise due diligence. the connection is, of course, that overconfidence often leads to skimping on due diligence.

what i actually meant, though, is this:

the main point of the GMAT math component is *not* to be a math test. in fact, the math itself is entirely incidental -- they only chose math because (a) it's a logical system, in the formal sort of way that, say, CR isn't, and (b) it's something that everyone taking the GMAT may reasonably be assumed to have seen.

in other words, the point of the math section isn't to test math; it's only there because everyone has had math. (this is the reason why the test stops at first-year algebra and geometry. beyond that point, you're going to start encounting concepts that candidates might legitimately never have seen before, thus lending an unfair advantage to candidates with more advanced math knowledge.) if everyone in 1st grade through high school studied, say, chess instead of math, then the GMAT would almost certainly have a chess component rather than a math component.

the real point of the math section -- especially the DS problems -- is to test everything else, besides the math:
* organization
* mental flexibility
* due diligence
* watching your assumptions
* reading the material carefully
* testing relevant cases
* relating different concepts to each other
* understanding the goal of the problem
etc.
you'll notice that these things are especially true for DS. when a high-scoring test taker gets a DS problem wrong, it's almost never because of any mistake that has anything to do with mathematics. instead, he/she will get the problem wrong as a result of not paying attention to the details in the problem, or not understanding exactly what "sufficient" and "insufficient" mean for that particular problem, or not organizing the work adequately, or not showing steps, or making careless assumptions, or ... you get the picture.
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.

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by sachindia » Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:14 am
lunarpower wrote:
sachindia wrote:Thanks Ron.... If it get it correctly, thin line between confidence and over-confidence is tested on this test?
that's not entirely what i meant, though it's a valid observation -- there are a lot of "trap answers" there, waiting for people who don't exercise due diligence. the connection is, of course, that overconfidence often leads to skimping on due diligence.

what i actually meant, though, is this:

the main point of the GMAT math component is *not* to be a math test. in fact, the math itself is entirely incidental -- they only chose math because (a) it's a logical system, in the formal sort of way that, say, CR isn't, and (b) it's something that everyone taking the GMAT may reasonably be assumed to have seen.

in other words, the point of the math section isn't to test math; it's only there because everyone has had math. (this is the reason why the test stops at first-year algebra and geometry. beyond that point, you're going to start encounting concepts that candidates might legitimately never have seen before, thus lending an unfair advantage to candidates with more advanced math knowledge.) if everyone in 1st grade through high school studied, say, chess instead of math, then the GMAT would almost certainly have a chess component rather than a math component.

the real point of the math section -- especially the DS problems -- is to test everything else, besides the math:
* organization
* mental flexibility
* due diligence
* watching your assumptions
* reading the material carefully
* testing relevant cases
* relating different concepts to each other
* understanding the goal of the problem
etc.
you'll notice that these things are especially true for DS. when a high-scoring test taker gets a DS problem wrong, it's almost never because of any mistake that has anything to do with mathematics. instead, he/she will get the problem wrong as a result of not paying attention to the details in the problem, or not understanding exactly what "sufficient" and "insufficient" mean for that particular problem, or not organizing the work adequately, or not showing steps, or making careless assumptions, or ... you get the picture.
As always, you and your posts are the best! :) Thanks a lot!
Regards,
Sach

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by ngalinh » Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:41 pm
lunarpower wrote: the main point of the GMAT math component is *not* to be a math test. in fact, the math itself is entirely incidental -- they only chose math because (a) it's a logical system, in the formal sort of way that, say, CR isn't, and (b) it's something that everyone taking the GMAT may reasonably be assumed to have seen.

in other words, the point of the math section isn't to test math; it's only there because everyone has had math. (this is the reason why the test stops at first-year algebra and geometry. beyond that point, you're going to start encounting concepts that candidates might legitimately never have seen before, thus lending an unfair advantage to candidates with more advanced math knowledge.) if everyone in 1st grade through high school studied, say, chess instead of math, then the GMAT would almost certainly have a chess component rather than a math component.

the real point of the math section -- especially the DS problems -- is to test everything else, besides the math:
* organization
* mental flexibility
* due diligence
* watching your assumptions
* reading the material carefully
* testing relevant cases
* relating different concepts to each other
* understanding the goal of the problem
etc.
you'll notice that these things are especially true for DS. when a high-scoring test taker gets a DS problem wrong, it's almost never because of any mistake that has anything to do with mathematics. instead, he/she will get the problem wrong as a result of not paying attention to the details in the problem, or not understanding exactly what "sufficient" and "insufficient" mean for that particular problem, or not organizing the work adequately, or not showing steps, or making careless assumptions, or ... you get the picture.
i agree with you. Math is a mean, not an end. Through GMAT, I see many flaws in my habits, either thinking habits or mechanical habits, or even emotional habits. Such a great tool!

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by ngalinh » Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:45 pm
sachindia wrote:If it get it correctly, thin line between confidence and over-confidence is tested on this test?
Thanks for your great question, so that we have the great answer!

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by lunarpower » Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:24 am
ngalinh wrote:i agree with you. Math is a mean, not an end. Through GMAT, I see many flaws in my habits, either thinking habits or mechanical habits, or even emotional habits. Such a great tool!
yep -- those things are all integral components of what's being tested here. if you understand that, then that's one big step on the path to doing better (not just on the exam, but in lots of other areas in life in general).
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.

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by ngalinh » Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:14 am
lunarpower wrote:
yep -- those things are all integral components of what's being tested here. if you understand that, then that's one big step on the path to doing better (not just on the exam, but in lots of other areas in life in general).
yes, hardest things kill worst habits.