Probability - Combinations - need expert help

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Question :

Right triangle LMN is to be constructed in the xy-plane so that the right angle is at point L and LM is parallel to the x-axis. The x- and y- coordinates of L, M, and N are to be integers that satisfy the inequalities -3 =< x =< 4 and 3 =< y =< 11. How many different triangles with these properties could be constructed?


(A) 72

(B) 576

(C) 4032

(D) 4608

(E) 6336

OA - C

I was able to arrive at the correct answer using Method1.


However, I am missing something in Method2.

Method1 = Possibilities of "first" point in the plane = 9x8
Second point (on x-axis)=>any of the seven points = 7
Third point (on y-axis) = 8

Therefore, # = 9x8x7x8 = 4032.........................(A)

Method2: Let's twist the solution.

Choose two points on "x-axis" (I am ignoring "y coordinate"). Therefore, # of possibilities = 8x7 (Order matters because the right angle will change depending on which two points are chosen) .................(i)

Now for the y-coordinate,

X could be {-3 -2 -1 0 1 2 3 4}

Y could be {3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11}

We have a problem when x=3 or 4 and y = 3 or 4. (We don't want the y co-ordinate = x co-ordinate)

Therefore, if X lies in {-3 -2 -1 0 1 2}, the number of combinations = 6C1 x 9c1 (1 number is chosen from six "x-co od"s and 1 is chosen from "y-co od"s.

Similarly, if x lies in {3 4} then the number of combinations = 2c1 x 8c1 (we cannot choose x = y)

Total # of combinations = 9x6 + 2x8 = 54+16= 70...........(ii) {One could arrive at the same number of combinations if y is chosen first and then x is chosen}

I know that I am missing two combinations in (ii) so that (i)x(ii) = 9x8x8x7 i.e. the answer we derived from (A).

Any thoughts ? :(

Thanks
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by Neo Anderson » Tue Mar 06, 2012 6:14 am
looks like the following to me:-
have to choose 2 values for x from 8 and 2 values for y from 9. Yes! order matters!!
=> 8P2 X 9P2 = 4032

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by voodoo_child » Tue Mar 06, 2012 6:59 am
Thanks but I still don't know what's wrong with my second method. :( I know that I am missing something.

Secondly, if you have already chosen 8P2, you are left with only ONE choice of "y". Why did you write 9P2?

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by Jim@StratusPrep » Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:25 am
Voodoo Child-

You wrote me a PM so wanted to respond. Honestly, do not even worry about solving it in your method 2. 1 is much more simple and logical. Know how to apply this for similar questions ans you will be just fine.
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by Brent@GMATPrepNow » Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:24 am
voodoo_child wrote:Question :

Right triangle LMN is to be constructed in the xy-plane so that the right angle is at point L and LM is parallel to the x-axis. The x- and y- coordinates of L, M, and N are to be integers that satisfy the inequalities -3 =< x =< 4 and 3 =< y =< 11. How many different triangles with these properties could be constructed?
(A) 72
(B) 576
(C) 4032
(D) 4608
(E) 6336

Method2: Let's twist the solution.

Choose two points on "x-axis" (I am ignoring "y coordinate"). Therefore, # of possibilities = 8x7 (Order matters because the right angle will change depending on which two points are chosen) .................(i)

Now for the y-coordinate,

X could be {-3 -2 -1 0 1 2 3 4}
Y could be {3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11}

We have a problem when x=3 or 4 and y = 3 or 4. (We don't want the y co-ordinate = x co-ordinate)

Therefore, if X lies in {-3 -2 -1 0 1 2}, the number of combinations = 6C1 x 9c1 (1 number is chosen from six "x-co od"s and 1 is chosen from "y-co od"s.

Similarly, if x lies in {3 4} then the number of combinations = 2c1 x 8c1 (we cannot choose x = y)

Total # of combinations = 9x6 + 2x8 = 54+16= 70...........(ii) {One could arrive at the same number of combinations if y is chosen first and then x is chosen}

I know that I am missing two combinations in (ii) so that (i)x(ii) = 9x8x8x7 i.e. the answer we derived from (A).

Any thoughts ? :(

Thanks
I received a PM regarding this.

To begin, I'm not sure why you are suggesting that the x- and y-coordinates cannot be equal. For example, the points (3,3), (4,4) and (3,4) create a right triangle that meets the given criteria.

Let's try your solution #2 again.

Let's first choose two points that are parallel to the x-axis (i.e., 2 points that create a horizontal line segment).

Well, the x-coordinates can be {-3 -2 -1 0 1 2 3 4}. There are 8 possible values and we'll select 2 of them. This can be accomplished in 8C2 ways (28 ways) (note: I'll say that order doesn't matter here)

With these 2 points we have a horizontal line segment that is not fixed in the vertical sense. This segment can be on any of the 9 options for y-coordinate. So, if we choose one of the 9 options from {3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11}, we'll "glue" that horizontal line segment into place.

So, we can "glue" a horizontal line segment into place in 28x9 ways.

At this point, all we need to do is select a 3rd point to complete our right triangle.

Now notice that our horizontal line segment has 2 points (the left-most point and the right-most point). The 3rd point in our triangle can be placed above or below either of these 2 points.

So, for example, let's say that our horizontal line segment has endpoints at (-2, 6) and (3, 6). Our third point can have x-coordinate -2 or x-coordinate 3. For either of these 2 options, we have 8 options for the y-coordinate (note: in this example, the y-coordinate can be any value except 6)

So, the total number of triangles will be: 28x9x2x8 = 4032

Cheers,
Brent
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by voodoo_child » Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:30 am
Brent and Jim,
I want to first thank you for responding to my PM. The reason why I thought that one should not have same x and y is that I wanted to avoid choosing "y coordinate" on the horizontal line. I ended up choosing one number from the set of x coordinate and the other from the set of y coordinate --> WRONG. After reading your solution, I could understand my mistake.

I think that another solution would be to choose two points from X-set and Y-set, with order in mind.

Essentially, total number of permutations = 8P2 * 9P2 = 8*7 * 9*8 = 4032.

I thought of modifying the problem to calculate ALL possible triangles in x-y plane using the condition above,

I think the answer would be : 8P3 * 9P2. Do you agree with my solution ? (I chose three x-coordinates from the X-set and two points
from the Y-set)

Please let me know your thoughts. Appreciate your help.

Thanks

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by Brent@GMATPrepNow » Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:49 am
voodoo_child wrote: I think that another solution would be to choose two points from X-set and Y-set, with order in mind.

Essentially, total number of permutations = 8P2 * 9P2 = 8*7 * 9*8 = 4032.

Please let me know your thoughts. Appreciate your help.
Thanks
Hmm, 8P2 * 9P2 does seem to yield the correct answer, but that might be merely coincidental.
I could be wrong though. Perhaps you can explain your reasoning behind 8P2 * 9P2.

Cheers,
Brent
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by Brent@GMATPrepNow » Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:02 am
voodoo_child wrote: I thought of modifying the problem to calculate ALL possible triangles in x-y plane using the condition above.

I think the answer would be : 8P3 * 9P2. Do you agree with my solution ? (I chose three x-coordinates from the X-set and two points
from the Y-set)

Please let me know your thoughts. Appreciate your help.

Thanks
I think your answer is way too small.

The answer the modified question above, first recognize that there are 72 points altogether in the defined region.

Next notice that, in most cases, we can create a triangle by choosing any 3 of these 72 points. So, the total number of ways to accomplish this is 72C3 (59,640 ways).

Unfortunately, this isn't the final answer because some of these 3-point selections do not yield triangles. Some 3-point selections create a straight line. For example, the points (1,9), (2,9) and (3,9) do not create a triangle.

So, we must count the total number of 3-point selections that yield a straight line, and then subtract this from 59,640.

As you can imagine, this is too much work for a GMAT question.

To be a reasonable (albeit 750-level) question, we need to make the allowable region smaller.

Here's a question that does just that: https://www.beatthegmat.com/how-many-tri ... 28974.html

Cheers,
Brent
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by voodoo_child » Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:17 pm
Brent@GMATPrepNow wrote:
voodoo_child wrote: I think that another solution would be to choose two points from X-set and Y-set, with order in mind.

Essentially, total number of permutations = 8P2 * 9P2 = 8*7 * 9*8 = 4032.

Please let me know your thoughts. Appreciate your help.
Thanks
Hmm, 8P2 * 9P2 does seem to yield the correct answer, but that might be merely coincidental.
I could be wrong though. Perhaps you can explain your reasoning behind 8P2 * 9P2.

Cheers,
Brent
Brent,
Here's my logic behind choosing 9P2 * 8P2 -

We know two things -
1)One of the lines is horizontal
2) The triangle has to be a right angled triangle.

Now, I can choose two x-cood from X-Set in 8*7 ways. (I am not concerned about Y - cood) at this point.

Once I have fixed my X-Cood, I can choose Y cood in two ways - 9*8; We dont need to worry about condition 2 (right angled triangle) because for every y-coordinate there are only two possibilities of x-cood, which are at the extremities of the horizontal line. Hence, 9P2 * 8P2.

Based on above logic, please let me know whether my working for *ALL* triangles is correct.

On a separate note, I solved 3X3 problem recommended by you. I really liked it. It took me 5-10 minutes to think about the theoretical approach. However, the moment I drew the diagram, things were clear.

Please let me know your thoughts.

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by Brent@GMATPrepNow » Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:32 pm
voodoo_child wrote:
Brent@GMATPrepNow wrote:
voodoo_child wrote: I think that another solution would be to choose two points from X-set and Y-set, with order in mind.

Essentially, total number of permutations = 8P2 * 9P2 = 8*7 * 9*8 = 4032.

Please let me know your thoughts. Appreciate your help.
Thanks
Hmm, 8P2 * 9P2 does seem to yield the correct answer, but that might be merely coincidental.
I could be wrong though. Perhaps you can explain your reasoning behind 8P2 * 9P2.

Cheers,
Brent
Brent,
Here's my logic behind choosing 9P2 * 8P2 -

We know two things -
1)One of the lines is horizontal
2) The triangle has to be a right angled triangle.

Now, I can choose two x-cood from X-Set in 8*7 ways. (I am not concerned about Y - cood) at this point.

Once I have fixed my X-Cood, I can choose Y cood in two ways - 9*8; We dont need to worry about condition 2 (right angled triangle) because for every y-coordinate there are only two possibilities of x-cood, which are at the extremities of the horizontal line. Hence, 9P2 * 8P2.

Based on above logic, please let me know whether my working for *ALL* triangles is correct.

On a separate note, I solved 3X3 problem recommended by you. I really liked it. It took me 5-10 minutes to think about the theoretical approach. However, the moment I drew the diagram, things were clear.

Please let me know your thoughts.

Voodoo Child
I'm still a little uncertain of your approach. For example, you said:
I can choose two x-cood from X-Set in 8*7 ways. (I am not concerned about Y - cood) at this point.
However, it seems that you can choose two x-coordinates in 8C2 ways (28 ways). I'm not sure why you are using permutations here (does order matter in your solution?)

Having said all of that, the original question is getting very close (and quite possibly exceeding) the maximum difficulty level of GMAT counting questions.

As for your solution to your altered question, your answer seems way too small to be correct. It should be in the 50,000 range, there are more calculations than I care to perform to find the correct answer. This altered question is too much to ever be a GMAT question.

Cheers,
Brent
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