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doubt SC 2

by aditya8062 » Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:06 am
In contrast to some fish eggs requiring months to incubate, the Rio Grande silvery minnow produces eggs that hatch in about 24 hours, yielding larvae that can swim in just three to four days.
(A) some fish eggs requiring months to incubate
(B) some fish, whose eggs require months to incubate
(C) some fish that have eggs requiring months to incubate
(D) the requirement of months of incubation for some fish eggs
(E) requiring months of incubation, as some fish eggs do

my concern : if i change option B as follows: in contrast to some fish whose eggs require months to incubate, the Rio Grande silvery minnow produces eggs that hatch in about 24 hours, yielding larvae that can swim in just three to four days. ----->please note i have removed "COMMA" after "FISH"
i feel that this change would make the initial modifier WRONG. my reasoning is that when i have already QUALIFIED the "FISH" as "SOME FISH" then i should not further QUALIFY it with "whose eggs require months to incubate" and when i am joining "whose eggs require months to incubate" to "SOME FISH" WITHOUT comma then it ACTS like a REDUNDANT QUALIFIER (to a thing that is already QUALIFIED)
is my reasoning correct?
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by MartyMurray » Wed Jan 07, 2015 6:50 am
Dude that's cool. While I am not sure about your reasoning exactly, taking that comma out makes it wrong for sure, because it makes the silvery minnow into both a fish "whose eggs take months to incubate" and a fish that "produces eggs that hatch in about 24 hours". In other words, without the comma it says in effect, "In contrast to some fish whose eggs take months to incubate, this fish whose eggs take months to incubate produces eggs that hatch in about 24 hours."
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by aditya8062 » Wed Jan 07, 2015 7:16 am
taking that comma out makes it wrong for sure, because it makes the silvery minnow into both a fish "whose eggs take months to incubate" and a fish that "produces eggs that hatch in about 24 hours".
Wow !! why would you say that? even without comma the contrast is DRAWN. in fact i feel that following would have been correct: In contrast to fish whose eggs require months to incubate , the Rio Grande silvery minnow produces eggs that hatch in about 24 hours, yielding larvae that can swim in just three to four days. --------->NOTE that i have changed "some fish" to "fish" and have also removed the comma !!
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by MartyMurray » Wed Jan 07, 2015 7:38 am
Look at this contrast.

In contrast to some fish, whose eggs take months to incubate, the silvery minnow...

In contrast to some fish whose eggs take months to incubate, the silvery minnow...

The first implies a contrast with some fish, and those fish lay eggs that take months to incubate.

The second implies a contrast between the silvery minnow, whose eggs take months to incubate, and other fish whose eggs take months to incubate. The implication is that we are talking about differences between fish, all of whom lay eggs that take months to incubate.

Here's another example,

In contrast to some people who have curly, unruly hair, John keeps his curly, unruly hair long and wears it loose.

versus

In contract to some people, who have curly, unruly hair, John is able to wear his hair loose because it is straight and easy to manage.
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by MartyMurray » Wed Jan 07, 2015 7:44 am
aditya8062 wrote:
taking that comma out makes it wrong for sure, because it makes the silvery minnow into both a fish "whose eggs take months to incubate" and a fish that "produces eggs that hatch in about 24 hours".
Wow !! why would you say that? even without comma the contrast is DRAWN. in fact i feel that following would have been correct: In contrast to fish whose eggs require months to incubate , the Rio Grande silvery minnow produces eggs that hatch in about 24 hours, yielding larvae that can swim in just three to four days. --------->NOTE that i have changed "some fish" to "fish" and have also removed the comma !!
If you take the some out, it becomes right again without the comma, and would then be wrong with the comma.

This is obviously wrong because it contrasts the silvery minnow with fish, when it is a fish. In contrast to fish, whose eggs require months to incubate, the silvery minnow...

So it has to be either with some and with the comma, or without some and without the comma.
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by aditya8062 » Wed Jan 07, 2015 7:56 am
in contrast to some fish, whose eggs take months to incubate, the silvery minnow... ------>sentence 1

In contrast to some fish whose eggs take months to incubate, the silvery minnow... -------->sentence 2
hi Marty ,
with all due respect, i disagree with you on this. irrespective of the fact (that sentence 1 is RIGHT and sentence 2 is wrong for reason that i have already stated) , the comparison in both sentences seems BETWEEN "some fish" AND "the silvery minnow" !!
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by MartyMurray » Wed Jan 07, 2015 8:23 am
With all due respect, the no comma version could be read either way.

Meanwhile, this is hilarious.
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by aditya8062 » Wed Jan 07, 2015 8:55 am
With all due respect, the no comma version could be read either way.
probably the following official SC will reinstate my point : In contrast to large steel plants that take iron ore through all the steps needed to produce several different kinds of steel, small mills, by processing steel scrap into a specialized group of products, have been able to put capital into new technology and remain
---------------->have a look at this SC, there is no comma between large steel plants AND "THAT" . the comparison is still between "large steel plants" AND "small mills"
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by MartyMurray » Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:50 am
aditya8062 wrote:
probably the following official SC will reinstate my point : In contrast to large steel plants that take iron ore through all the steps needed to produce several different kinds of steel, small mills, by processing steel scrap into a specialized group of products, have been able to put capital into new technology and remain
---------------->have a look at this SC, there is no comma between large steel plants AND "THAT" . the comparison is still between "large steel plants" AND "small mills"
Perfect, I disagree with what are saying here too. I find the contrast to be not between large steel plants and small mills, but rather between large steel plants that take iron ore through all the steps needed... and small mills.

The word that creates a restrictive clause modifying large steel plants, meaning that there is a particular kind of large steel plants being discussed here.
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by aditya8062 » Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:30 am
Perfect, I disagree with what are saying here too. I find the contrast to be not between large steel plants and small mills, but rather between large steel plants that take iron ore through all the steps needed... and small mills.

The word that creates a restrictive clause modifying large steel plants, meaning that there is a particular kind of large steel plants being discussed here.
now what happened to the ambiguous comparison that you were pointing out? if it was there why it is not here ? BTW i did mean that the comparison was between "large mills" with attached modifiers AND "small mills" . in fact a different sentence such as : In contrast to large steel plants, small mills, by processing steel scrap into a specialized group of products, have been able to put capital into new technology and remain ----->would be also correct !!
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by MartyMurray » Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:47 am
In this, In contrast to some fish whose eggs take months to incubate, the silvery minnow..., basically whose eggs take months to incubate is a restrictive modifier.

So I say that this is incorrect because as I said it implies that the silvery minnow is being contrasted with other fish of the same type, that type being fish whose eggs take months to incubate. The problem is that the rest of the sentence goes on to say that the silvery minnow is not of that type.

Your interpretation is that the silvery minnow is being contrasted with some fish whose eggs take months to incubate. The word some does not really make sense here actually, but I was willing to concede some possibility that there is some ambiguity as to how the sentence should be interpreted.

Without the word some, it becomes like the steel plant example, actually, and is fine without a comma.

With the word some, it needs a comma.
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by PiyushKashyap » Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:23 pm
Marty Murray wrote:Look at this contrast.

In contrast to some fish, whose eggs take months to incubate, the silvery minnow...

In contrast to some fish whose eggs take months to incubate, the silvery minnow...

The first implies a contrast with some fish, and those fish lay eggs that take months to incubate.
Hi Marty,
Can you please cite an official problem that proclaims a comparison done in a way as you have mentioned above in underlined text.

As per me, "whose eggs take months ...." is a modifier that is modifying fish (noun present before comma); thus, in the first sentence "some fish" is being compared with "silvery minnow".
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by MartyMurray » Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:40 pm
I agree. In the first sentence, some fish is being contrasted with the silvery minnow.

Exactly. It's clear.

In that sentence you underlined I was saying that the silvery minnow is being compared with some fish, and I was saying that it also says that those fish lay eggs that take months to incubate. That's all. That underlined sentence is not meant to demonstrate a new comparison.

The sentence you underlined could be restated this way.

The first implies a contrast between the silvery minnow and some fish, and further it says that the fish with which the silvery minnow is being compared lay eggs that take months to incubate.
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by GMATGuruNY » Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:25 pm
aditya8062 wrote: my concern : if i change option B as follows: in contrast to some fish whose eggs require months to incubate, the Rio Grande silvery minnow produces eggs that hatch in about 24 hours, yielding larvae that can swim in just three to four days. ----->please note i have removed "COMMA" after "FISH"
i feel that this change would make the initial modifier WRONG.

my reasoning is that when i have already QUALIFIED the "FISH" as "SOME FISH" then i should not further QUALIFY it with "whose eggs require months to incubate" and when i am joining "whose eggs require months to incubate" to "SOME FISH" WITHOUT comma then it ACTS like a REDUNDANT QUALIFIER (to a thing that is already QUALIFIED)
is my reasoning correct?
In contrast to SOME TEAM MEMBERS, THE GOALIE attended every game.
Here, the implication is that the goalie is a TEAM MEMBER.
Conveyed meaning:
While SOME TEAM MEMBERS did not attend every game, the goalie -- who is also a TEAM MEMBER -- DID attend every game.

B, as written:
In contrast to SOME FISH, THE SILVERY MINNOW produces eggs that hatch in 24 hours.
Here, the implication is that the silvery minnow is a FISH.
Conveyed meaning:
While SOME FISH do not produce eggs that hatch in 24 hours, the silvery minnow -- which is also a FISH -- DOES produce eggs that hatch in 24 hours.

aditya8062's altered version of B:
In contrast to SOME FISH WHOSE EGGS REQUIRE MONTHS TO INCUBATE, THE SILVERY MINNOW produces eggs that hatch in 24 hours.
Here, the implication is that the silvery minnow is a FISH WHOSE EGGS REQUIRE MONTHS TO INCUBATE.
Conveyed meaning:
While SOME FISH WHOSE EGGS REQUIRE MONTHS TO INCUBATE do not produce eggs that hatch in 24 hours, the silvery minnow -- which is also a FISH WHOSE EGGS REQUIRE MONTHS TO INCUBATE -- DOES produce eggs that hatch in 24 hours.
Not the intended meaning.
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by aditya8062 » Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:45 pm
Thanks Guru
aditya8062's altered version of B:
In contrast to SOME FISH WHOSE EGGS REQUIRE MONTHS TO INCUBATE, THE SILVERY MINNOW produces eggs that hatch in 24 hours.
Here, the implication is that the silvery minnow is a FISH WHOSE EGGS REQUIRE MONTHS TO INCUBATE.
Conveyed meaning:
While SOME FISH WHOSE EGGS REQUIRE MONTHS TO INCUBATE do not produce eggs that hatch in 24 hours, the silvery minnow -- which is also a FISH WHOSE EGGS REQUIRE MONTHS TO INCUBATE -- DOES produce eggs that hatch in 24 hours.
Not the intended meaning.
if i apply the above reasoning to the following OA : In contrast to large steel plants that take iron ore through all the steps needed to produce several different kinds of steel, small mills--a type of steel plant that take iron ore through all the steps needed to produce several different kinds of steel, small mills-- , by processing steel scrap into a specialized group of products, have been able to put capital into new technology and remain ------------> i feel that if i apply this reasoning to the above OA then parts in blue and red are giving a opposite meaning . i mean then we seems to imply that "small mills" use both "iron ore" AND "steel scrap" ( in fact the portion in red and blue are VERY OPPOSING process employed by "large mills" AND "small mills" respectively) . how is this possible?

Thanks and regards
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