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Is numbers considered an uncountable modifier?

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Is numbers considered an uncountable modifier?

by manimgoindowndown » Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:56 pm
Explain someone please?

What the difference between these two senttences

The rare Mountauk beaked griffin is not extinct, its NUMBERS are not suspected to be much MORE than before

The rare Mntauk braked griffin is not extinct; its NUMBERS are now suspected to be much GREATER than nefore
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by Tommy Wallach » Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:29 pm
Hey Manim,

There's a lot of talk on here about the correct usage of "number" and "numbers," so I'd search it here on the site. As for your question, the correct descriptor for "numbers" would be "greater," not "more." I don't love either of these sentences, however. I'd prefer:

The rare Montauk beaked griffin is not extinct; its numbers are now suspected to be much greater than they were before.

But you take what you can get on the GMAT. : )

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by ceilidh.erickson » Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:53 pm
Just a school-marm-y note for you: please make sure that you're careful with your transcription of the problem! It's hard to tell which of these are differences between the sentences, and which are just typos:
The rare Mountauk beaked griffin is not extinct, its NUMBERS are not suspected to be much MORE than before

The rare Mntauk braked griffin is not extinct; its NUMBERS are now suspected to be much GREATER than nefore
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by aditya8062 » Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:10 am
good day sir Tommy
in the Manhattan book of SC its stated that that word "more" can go with both countable and non countable nouns so why is it that "numbers" cannot go with "more" .i know there is one official problem of "gyrfalcon" that uses "greater" with "numbers" but still how i justify that concept stated in Manhattan book
also "number" as singular i can understand is non countable : for example i have greater number of pancakes than my brother has

while
"numbers" as plural should normally be countable : for example there are 4 numbers in the lottery ticket
now i do understand that sometimes non countable noun can be plural (though not always ) such as "taxes" but what i want to learn from u is when exactly does it happen
in other words when (as an exception ) plural noun acts like non countable ?
thanks and regards
aditya
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by Tommy Wallach » Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:25 pm
Hey Aditya,

Why does "more" go with both but "numbers" doesn't? Because. Seriously. Just because.

I don't quite understand your question. There are an infinitude of words that do what you're asking, so I can't just list them out. Is there a more specific question in here that I'm missing? I'd just focus on how more/greater/numbers works, and not worry about finding/memorizing a bunch of other words that might be similar.

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by aditya8062 » Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:47 pm
good day sir Tommy ,
i am sorry if my question wasn't clear .i will put it again : i have read in Manhattan book that "more" can go with both countable and non countable nouns .now what amazes me is the complexity of this noun "numbers" .at times it acts like countable noun and sometimes like non countable
i will put it in examples 1:i have 4 numbers in my lottery ticket ---"numbers" as countable noun

example 2: The gyrfalcon, an Arctic bird of prey, has survived a close brush with extinction; its numbers are now five times greater than when the use of DDT ---here "numbers" is acting like non countable

now my question is if "more" can go with both countable and non countable nouns then why would "more" be wrong in example 2 (the gyrfalcon one---"numbers" was used here as non countable)

also plz tell the following : is it that when we say "more numbers" then "numbers" acts like countable?
and
is it that when we say "greater numbers" then "numbers " acts like non countable ?

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by Tommy Wallach » Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:14 pm
Hey Aditya,

Yes to both of your last questions, which I think answers everything else.

And "numbers" are just greater. Consider it idiomatic and leave it at that. It's easier to do that than to try to derive some complex rule about it.

Hope that helps!

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by David@VeritasPrep » Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:53 am
Aditya -

I understand your question and I think I can help. You know idioms are not a big part of the GMAT, so you should not have to memorize a rule for each particular word. However, comparisons are a big part of the GMAT and that is what we have here...

You say that more can be used for both countable and uncountable numbers and you want to know why you cannot use "more" in the gyrfalcon example, simply try it. "Its numbers are now five times more..."

I think that the real key is that you have to use "more" to modify something as it cannot stand alone in this type of sentence. For example you can use "more" with uncountable nouns like "love" -- "I feel more love everyday." More is modifying love. You can do without the "more" right, since it is a modifier? "I feel love everyday." But if you want to use "is" as in "My love is..." then you have to use "greater" because "more" cannot stand alone. "My love is greater" works fine "My love is more" does not work because you have to indicate what it is more of...

I believe that this is because "greater" like other words such as "larger" "ruder" "taller" etc. are a full comparison - such as "He is taller" "That car is larger" Whereas the word "more" is only part of a comparison, "more ____" (fill in the blank) "more successful" "more helpful" and so forth.

You cannot let more stand alone in the gyrfalcon example. The sentence is correct to say "Its numbers are greater" But you cannot say "Its numbers are more" because the question is "more what?" I can say "the crowd is greater now" (meaning that it is bigger) but I cannot say "the crowd is more" More what? "more attentive?" "more diverse?"

So greater can follow the passive verb form of "be" -- in this case "are" -- as in "are greater." But more cannot do this alone. To use more in your second example would require something like, "the birds are now more numerous than in the past" with "more" modifying "numerous."

It is not so much that the word "numbers" is so strange, although it is true that the use of the possessive in this sentence requires the switch from "number" to "numbers" (you cannot say "its number" or you will have a meaning that does not make sense - this use of number is like the number on a sports jersey, "Ronaldo's jersey number" but we don't mean that the bird is wearing a number but that there are a certain number of birds so we use "its numbers").

But the sentence is essentially saying "the number of gyrfalcons is now five times greater." And it would not work to say "is five times more..."

So this has less to do with the noun "numbers" being special and much more to do with the structure of the sentence and the use of the verb "are" versus the use of "have" in your first example. You can always say "I have more" because the comparison is implied. But if you use the form of "to be" you will need greater..."My wealth is greater"..."Not my wealth is more"

Does that help?
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by aditya8062 » Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:57 pm
To David@VeritasPrep
thanks a lot Sir.now i can differentiate between "more" and "greater" with much ease. i have made addition to my notes.i want to ask u one more question on this .is "number" as singular always uncountable for instance in the example: i have greater number of pancakes than my brother has---"number" as singular is non countable. i cannot figure out "number" as singular being used as countable .plz confirm me on this issue
thanks and regards
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