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Kaplan 800 confusion

by mundasingh123 » Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:51 pm
Source: KAPLAN 800

Those who have visited the Grand Canyon have typically seen layers of sediment in the gaping canyon, with different colors that mark the passage of time like the rings in a tree trunk.

(A) seen layers of sediment in the gaping canyon, with different colors that mark
(B) see layers of sediment in the gaping canyon, whose different colors mark
(C) been seeing layers of sediment in the gaping canyon, whose different colors are markers of
(D) been able to see layers of sediment in the gaping canyon, with different colors marking
(E) seen layers of sediment in the gaping canyon, marking by different colors

[spoiler]OA: A[/spoiler]
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by ashish2104 » Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:14 am
A is correct for the following reasons.

Visitors saw layers of seditment, requiring simple past tense 'seen'.
with different colors correctly modifies 'layers of sediment'.
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by gmatusa2010 » Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:27 am
interesting question. A is the least weird but not good. I don't think seen is a simple past tense. Visitors "have seen" thats the full action here and its correct. Would love to hear experts breakdown the "with" modifier here.
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by mundasingh123 » Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:00 am
Hi the only modifiers that i have come across are -ed and -ing modifiers.Rules for them have been explicitly laid down in the study materials.But in this case , the option show -with and -whose after the commas
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by gmatmachoman » Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:33 am
mundasingh123 wrote:Source: KAPLAN 800

Those who have visited the Grand Canyon have typically seen layers of sediment in the gaping canyon, with different colors that mark the passage of time like the rings in a tree trunk.

(A) seen layers of sediment in the gaping canyon, with different colors that mark
(B) see layers of sediment in the gaping canyon, whose different colors mark
(C) been seeing layers of sediment in the gaping canyon, whose different colors are markers of
(D) been able to see layers of sediment in the gaping canyon, with different colors marking
(E) seen layers of sediment in the gaping canyon, marking by different colors

[spoiler]OA: A[/spoiler]


Those who have visited the Grand Canyon have typically seen layers of sediment in the gaping canyon, with different colors that mark the passage of time like the rings in a tree trunk.


Those who have visited the Grand Canyon have typically seen layers of sediment in the gaping canyon, with different colors marking the passage of time like the rings in a tree trunk.

Are both the sentences correct??
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by e-GMAT » Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:42 am
Those who have visited the Grand Canyon have typically seen layers of sediment in the gaping canyon, with different colors that mark the passage of time like the rings in a tree trunk.

Those who have visited the Grand Canyon have typically seen layers of sediment in the gaping canyon, with different colors marking the passage of time like the rings in a tree trunk.

I do not believe there is any difference between the two constructions above. In both cases above, the modifier is modifying the preceding noun - colors. In second sentence, the verb-ing modifier is not separated by a comma and hence it modifies the preceding noun.

For e-GMAT Users, this is explained clearly in file titled "Modifiers - Verb-ing". This concept is now available in the Free Preview of the course.

I hope this helps.

Regards,

Payal
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by gmatmachoman » Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:49 am
Thanks Payal. yeah I did go through the content. Just had a doubt..so got clarified....
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by GMATMadeEasy » Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:41 am
different colors refer to Sediments or grand canyon ?

Why B is not correct ? A relative clause can clearly modify the preceding Noun well.
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by hero » Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:29 am
gmatusa2010 wrote:interesting question. A is the least weird but not good. I don't think seen is a simple past tense. Visitors "have seen" thats the full action here and its correct. Would love to hear experts breakdown the "with" modifier here.
yeah i separated the answers based on "seen" first, and then went look for the modifier to isolate the correct answer. When i saw "with" in the original sentence i immediately thought "i need to look for another choice".

I thought you don't want to introduce a preposition with the word "with"? or is that just a "usually" rule and we should first look for a better choice? am i confusing rules?

E seemed awkward, and i didn't like the "with" in A, but it seemed better.
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by e-GMAT » Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:38 pm
GMATMadeEasy wrote:different colors refer to Sediments or grand canyon ?

Why B is not correct ? A relative clause can clearly modify the preceding Noun well.
Hi GMATMadeEasy,

In this sentence the modifier "with different colors" modifies the layers of sediments.
Choice A
"Those who have visited the Grand Canyon have typically seen layers of sediment in the gaping canyon, with different colors that mark the passage of time like the rings in a tree trunk."

As you can see there are multiple modifiers for the noun - layers.
of sediments - explains the nature of the layers - what are the layers made up of?
in the gaping canyon - explains the location of these "layers of sediments"
with different colors - further describes these "layers of sediments in the gaping canyon".
So as you can see these modifiers are somewhat nested (Please note this is not a technical grammatical term).

Choice B
"Those who have visited the Grand Canyon have typically seen layers of sediment in the gaping canyon, whose different colors mark the passage of time like the rings in a tree trunk."
Now the rules with relative pronoun modifiers are very clear. They typically modify the closest nouns. However, in certain cases they may also modify slightly far away nouns as long as certain conditions are met:

1: The information that is placed between the modified noun and that modifier cannot be placed anywhere else.
2: It does not make sense for the modifier to modify the closest noun.

In this sentence: the information "in the gaping canyon" cannot be placed anywhere else since this needs to describe the "layers of sediments". Thus condition 1 is met.
However, the sentence does not meet the second condition. This is because the modifier "whose different colors..." can modify the "canyon" as well and hence causes ambiguity in the meaning of the sentence.

Thus, the modifier "whose different colors" can either modify the canyon or the layers of sediments and hence is ambiguous. Thus choice B is not correct.

I hope this helps.

Please let me know if you have any questions.

Regards,

Payal
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by paes » Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:13 pm
Payal,

I am not very convinced why A is better than B.

In A : 'with different colors' is an adverbial prepositional modifier, so it can modify to 'those' also.



Those who have visited the Grand Canyon have typically seen layers of sediment in the gaping canyon, with different colors that mark the passage of time like the rings in a tree trunk.

Some both A and B have modifier ambiguity issue.
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by e-GMAT » Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:37 pm
Interesting thought paes. Typically the adverbial modifiers that have the ability to modify the subject and verb of preceding clauses are the 'verb-ing modifiers' or 'preposition + verb-ing modifiers'. I have not really seen a prepositional phrase act in the same way. That being said, I can always learn something new, so I would really appreciate if you can please provide some examples. :)

Since I typically use "meaning" as a guiding principle, even if what you said is true that "with different colors" can modify "those who visited", this modification does not make sense in the context of the sentence.
Those who have visited Grand Canyon...with different colors that mark the passage of time...

Thus, based on my understanding, this modification is not correct both from grammatical standpoint and from meaning standpoint.

Please let me know if you agree with the above explanation.

At this point, I would like to add a bit about prepositional phrases as modifiers. These have the capability to modify either verbs or nouns.
For example:
I cook meals at night = In this sentence, "at night" modifies the verb "cook" and not the noun "meals".
I like food with spices = In this sentence, "with spices" modifies the noun "food" and not the verb "like"

In the sentences above, there is no ambiguity about the meaning of the sentence since it makes sense for the modifier to only modify the intended entity.

Thus, it depends on the context of the sentence, whether such modifiers modify nouns or verbs. This implies that understanding the meaning of the sentence is very important to determine what role modifiers play in the sentence.

For e-GMAT Users, the concept file "Type of Modifiers" cover all kinds of modifiers including prepositional phrase modifiers. This
concept is available free of charge in the preview of SC-3 week course. The concept of verb-ing modifiers modifying preceding clause is covered in the concept file "Modifiers - Verb-ing". For a short time, this is also available free of charge in the preview of the comprehensive course Sentence Correction.
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by paes » Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:54 pm
Payal,

For your 1st query : prepositional modifier [ without ing usage ]

Here is one example from og :
The diet of the ordinary Greek in classical times was largely vegetarian-vegetables ， fresh cheese，oatmeal，and meal cakes, with meat as a rarity

https://www.beatthegmat.com/the-diet-of- ... 61331.html


Now coming back to this problem, I don't find anything wrong with B.


See one more , example from OG

Out of America's fascination with all things antique have grown a market for bygone styles of furniture and fixtures that are bringing back the chaise lounge, the overstuffed sofa, and the claw-footed bathtub.

(B) things antique has grown a market for bygone styles of furniture and fixtures that is bringing
(E) antique things has grown a market for bygone styles of furniture and fixtures that bring

Here B is better than E.
https://www.beatthegmat.com/sc-570-out-o ... 37067.html
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by e-GMAT » Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:22 am
paes wrote:Payal,

For your 1st query : prepositional modifier [ without ing usage ]

Here is one example from og :
The diet of the ordinary Greek in classical times was largely vegetarian-vegetables ， fresh cheese，oatmeal，and meal cakes, with meat as a rarity

https://www.beatthegmat.com/the-diet-of- ... 61331.html
IMO, "with meat as a rarity" modifies "largely vegetarian". However, this sentence uses a linking verb "was" which basically sets up an equation as follows: Diet = largely vegetarian. And hence in this case, the modifiers for "largely vegetarian" will also be applicable to the "diet". However, this is not the case with the sentence in question.
paes wrote:
Now coming back to this problem, I don't find anything wrong with B.
See one more , example from OG
Out of America's fascination with all things antique have grown a market for bygone styles of furniture and fixtures that are bringing back the chaise lounge, the overstuffed sofa, and the claw-footed bathtub.

(B) things antique has grown a market for bygone styles of furniture and fixtures that is bringing
(E) antique things has grown a market for bygone styles of furniture and fixtures that bring

Here B is better than E.
https://www.beatthegmat.com/sc-570-out-o ... 37067.html
I cannot agree more with your statement. However, I cannot draw a parallel between this example and the question that we are discussing.
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by paes » Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:02 am
Thanks for the clarification.

It was a good discussion to revise my concepts.

Anyway,
this is a controversial question.
I saw many other sites also where people are divided among A, B and D.
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