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officials at the united states GPREP SC

by abhasjha » Sun May 18, 2014 5:32 am
Officials at the United States Mint believe that the Sacagawea dollar coin will be used more as a substitute for four quarters rather than for the dollar bill because its weight, only 8.1 grams, is far less than four quarters, which weigh 5.67 grams each.

A) more as a substitute for four quarters rather than for the dollar bill because its weight, only 8.1 grams, is far less than

B) more as a substitute for four quarters than the dollar bill because it weighs only 8.1 grams, far lighter than

C) as a substitute for four quarters more than for the dollar bill because it weighs only 8.1 grams, far less than

D) as a substitute for four quarters more than the dollar bill because its weight of only 8.1 grams is far lighter than it is for

E) as a substitute more for four quarters rather than for the dollar bill because its weight, only 8.1 grams, is far less than it is for
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by AnjaliOberoi » Sun May 18, 2014 5:53 am
A) more as a substitute for four quarters rather than for the dollar bill because its weight, only 8.1 grams, is far less than

B) more as a substitute for four quarters than the dollar bill because it weighs only 8.1 grams, far lighter than - wrong comparison; "Weight is less than XYZ"

C) as a substitute for four quarters more than for the dollar bill because it weighs only 8.1 grams, far less than- correct comparison- "four quarters" and the "dollar bill"

D) as a substitute for four quarters more than the dollar bill because its weight of only 8.1 grams is far lighter than it is for- "Weight is less than XYZ" is correct

E) as a substitute more for four quarters rather than for the dollar bill because its weight, only 8.1 grams, is far less than it is for - seems awkward
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by aditya8062 » Sun May 18, 2014 9:09 am
C seems best
following bold portions are wrong

A) more as a substitute for four quarters rather than for the dollar bill because its weight, only 8.1 grams, is far less than

B) more as a substitute for four quarters than the dollar bill because it weighs only 8.1 grams, far lighter than----------->ambiguous

C) as a substitute for four quarters more than for the dollar bill because it weighs only 8.1 grams, far less than------->correct

D) as a substitute for four quarters more than the dollar bill because its weight of only 8.1 grams is far lighter than it is for-------->ambiguous

E) as a substitute more for four quarters rather than for the dollar bill because its weight, only 8.1 grams, is far less than it is for
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by fenway4 » Mon May 19, 2014 5:45 am
It seems to me that all of the answers have problems. Isn't the proper idiom supposed to be "more X than Y"??

However, in C) we have:

"as a substitute for four quarters more than [as a substitute] for the dollar bill...."

So, that's "X more than Y" (instead of the usual "more X than Y"), which doesn't sound idiomatic to me. It also explains why I thought C) sounded very strange when I was reading through the choices. In addition, the end of the sentence is awkward too:

"...because it weighs only 8.1 grams, far less than four quarters...."

It is not immediately obvious what "far less than four quarters" is modifying IMO. Possible interpretations are:

"...because it weighs only 8.1 grams, [which is] far less than four quarters...."
"...because it weighs only 8.1 grams, [and is] far less than four quarters...."
"...because it weighs only 8.1 grams, far less than four quarters [weigh]...."

Personally, I don't think this is a very good question. I can understand the reasoning for picking C), but I think it has problems too.
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by aditya8062 » Mon May 19, 2014 5:58 am
So, that's "X more than Y" (instead of the usual "more X than Y"), which doesn't sound idiomatic to me
just because one construction is idiomatic does not make the other construction unidiomatic .in fact both the construction that u have cited are correct
"X more than Y" is a construction that falls into the category of "X adj/adv THAN Y" .for instance: "A is greater than B"

also there is no problem in C
C says :Officials at the United States Mint believe that the Sacagawea dollar coin will be used as a substitute for four quarters more than for the dollar bill because it weighs only 8.1 grams, far less than four quarters, which weigh 5.67 grams each.

intended meaning: Officials at the United States Mint believe that the Sacagawea dollar coin will be used as a substitute for four quarters more than [Sacagawea dollar coin will be used as a substitute] for the dollar bill because it[Sacagawea dollar coin] weighs only 8.1 grams, far less than four quarters, which weigh 5.67 grams each
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by abhasjha » Mon May 19, 2014 9:11 am
A) more as a substitute for four quarters rather than for the dollar bill because its weight, only 8.1 grams, is far less than

the word "rather" does not belong here.

But even if you did not catch this, the phrase "its weight...is far less than four quarters" does not make sense.
It should be "its weight...is far less than that of four quarters."

Additionally, because of the positioning of the word "more" early in the sentence, this sentence is structurally should be saying "more as a SUBSTITUTE...than as a [Blank]"

So A is wrong.

B) more as a substitute for four quarters than the dollar bill because it weighs only 8.1 grams, far lighter than

Because of the positioning of the word "more" early in the sentence, this sentence is structurally should be saying "more as a SUBSTITUTE...than as a [Blank]"

Since this structure is violated, we know B is wrong. If you want to compare the four quarters and the dollar bill, you'll have to move the position of the word "more."

C) as a substitute for four quarters more than for the dollar bill because it weighs only 8.1 grams, far less than

This is what we want! The position of the word "more" is further into the sentence so structurally, we are correctly comparing "four quarters" and the "dollar bill."

D) as a substitute for four quarters more than the dollar bill because its weight of only 8.1 grams is far lighter than it is for

The phrase should be "the weight...is far LESS than" --this is preferred.

You can say "it weighs lighter than XYZ" --just like you can say "I weigh heavier than him." ---But when you begin with the form "its weight is" then you should finish it off with "LESS THAN" rather than "LIGHTER THAN." Likewise, you wouldn't say "my weight is heavier than his"---you would say "my weight is more than his"

And as previously mentioned, you also need the word "for" before "the dollar bill"

So either way, D is wrong.

E) as a substitute more for four quarters rather than for the dollar bill because its weight, only 8.1 grams, is far less than it is for

Again, you don't want the word "rather" in "rather than" here. E is wrong.

The phrase "is far less than it is for"--is chunky. Other answer choices offer something that is simpler and more concise--like answer choice C.

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by e-GMAT » Mon May 19, 2014 12:28 pm
fenway4 wrote:It seems to me that all of the answers have problems. Isn't the proper idiom supposed to be "more X than Y"??
Hi @fenway4,

The problem with focusing on idiomatic usage to analyze options is that our understanding of 'typically' correct idioms interferes with our understanding of the meaning that the option conveys. I would say that you need to be particularly careful about understanding the intended logic of the sentence when it makes a comparison.

Here's how I would go about understanding this question. The original sentence contains a comparison that is expressed using the comparison marker 'more than'. Okay, so my focus needs to be on whether the comparison makes logical sense in the original sentence. If it does, I know I need a correct answer that doesn't change the intended logic. But if it doesn't make sense in the original sentence, then I need to infer the correct logic from the original sentence, and then look for an answer that also uses the correct intended meaning.

So far so good. Let's do the meaning analysis.

Meaning Analysis

Since your question is about 'more than', I'm going to focus only on the comparison in this meaning analysis.

Officials at the United States Mint believe that the Sacagawea dollar coin will be used more as a substitute for four quarters rather than for the dollar bill because its weight, only 8.1 grams, is far less than four quarters, which weigh 5.67 grams each.

So the original sentence has two comparisons:

1. the Sacagawea dollar coin will be used more as a substitute for four quarters rather than for the dollar bill => Comparison between 'four quarters' and 'the dollar bill'
2. its weight... is far less than four quarters => Comparison between 'its weight' and 'four quarters'

While the first comparison is logically correct, the second clearly isn't. 'Weight' can't be compared to 'quarters'. The weight of something can logically be compared only with the weight of something else.

Error Analysis

Comparison errors in this sentence:

1. the Sacagawea dollar coin will be used more as a substitute for four quarters rather than for the dollar bill => 'More' can't be followed by 'rather than'. 'More' indicates a comparison while 'rather than' is used to show contrast. Note that in the case of option A, it is perfectly fine to eliminate the option based on the usage of 'more than' compared to the usage of 'rather than'. This is because the two phrases are used for different purposes. We already know from our meaning analysis that this sentence is making a comparison, not a contrast. So 'rather than' is out.
2. its weight... is far less than four quarters => Illogical comparison between 'its weight' and 'four quarters'.

Process of Elimination:

As I've done above, I'm going to focus on the comparison issue to eliminate choices, since your question is about the use of 'more than'.

Option A: INCORRECT as discussed.

Option B: INCORRECT.

1. Comparison Error: 'More as a substitute for four quarters than the dollar bill' => This comparison is ambiguous. It could mean one of two things:
i) The dollar coin will be used more as a substitute for four quarters than the dollar bill will. => Comparison between the dollar coin and the dollar bill.
ii) The dollar coin will be used more as a substitute for four quarters than for the dollar bill. => Comparison between four quarters and the dollar bill.

So you can see, there's no justification for applying the 'more X than Y' logic here. In fact, I would say it's a misconception that this use is 'idiomatic'. Saying so implies that this structure is always correct, whereas really, it's correct only when it conveys the intended logic correctly.

Option C: CORRECT

This choice says that the dollar coin will be used as a substitute for four quarters more than FOR the dollar bill. So, it clearly resolves the ambiguity present in option B.

Option D: INCORRECT

1. Comparison Error: 'For' is missing, leading to ambiguity.

Option E: INCORRECT

1. Comparison Error: 'More' is followed by 'rather than'.

So, as you can see, going by idiomatic usage is unlikely to be the best way to solve a comparison question. Focusing on the logic behind the comparison is the way to go.

I hope this analysis helps!

Regards,
Meghna
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by GMATGuruNY » Mon May 19, 2014 2:46 pm
fenway4 wrote:It seems to me that all of the answers have problems. Isn't the proper idiom supposed to be "more X than Y"??

However, in C) we have:

"as a substitute for four quarters more than [as a substitute] for the dollar bill...."

So, that's "X more than Y" (instead of the usual "more X than Y"), which doesn't sound idiomatic to me. It also explains why I thought C) sounded very strange when I was reading through the choices.
The Sacagawea dollar coin will be used as a substitute for four quarters more than for the dollar bill.

Generally, more than serves to compare CLAUSES.
The compared clauses typically will be the same, save for any words in the second clause that serve to replace parallel words in the first.
Here, for the dollar bill (in the second clause) serves to replace for four quarters (in the first clause).
Otherwise, the two clauses are the same:
The Sacagawea dollar coin will be used as a substitute for four quarters more than [the Sacagawea dollar coin will be used as a substitute] for the dollar bill.
The words in brackets are omitted, but their presence is implied.
Thus, the OA makes a perfectly logical comparison.
In addition, the end of the sentence is awkward too:

The coin weighs only 8.1 grams, far less than four quarters.

It is not immediately obvious what "far less than four quarters" is modifying IMO. Possible interpretations are:
The modifier in red functions as an APPOSITIVE.
An appositive is a word or phrase that serves to explain or define the preceding word or phrase.
Here, the implication is that only 8.1 grams can be defined as far less than four quarters [weigh].
The word in brackets is omitted, but its presence is implied.
Conveyed meanings:
The coin weighs only 8.1 grams.
The coin weighs far less than four quarters [weigh].
The portions in red are EQUIVALENT ways of expressing how much the coin WEIGHS.

This sort of appositive structure is very common on the GMAT.
Another example:
Lake Baikal holds 20 percent of the world's fresh water, more than all the North American Great Lakes combined.
Here, more than all the North American Great Lakes combined is in apposition to 20 percent of the world's fresh water.
Conveyed meanings:
Lake Baikal HOLDS 20 percent of the world's fresh water.
Lake Baikal HOLDS more [fresh water] than all the North American Great Lakes combined [hold].
The words in brackets are omitted, but their presence is implied.
The portions in red are EQUIVALENT ways of expressing how much water Lake Baikal HOLDS.
The purpose of the second red phrase is to explain or define the first.
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by fenway4 » Mon May 19, 2014 8:54 pm
aditya8062 wrote: just because one construction is idiomatic does not make the other construction unidiomatic
in fact both the construction that u have cited are correct
"X more than Y" is a construction that falls into the category of "X adj/adv THAN Y" .for instance: "A is greater than B"
Hi, Aditya. My point is that the construction in question just doesn't sound as idiomatic--at least to my ears. (Also, your example contains an "is"--this one does not. That word makes a big difference.) For instance, here's the following sentence:

Our boss was considered more a dictator than a manager.

vs.

Our boss was considered a dictator more than [he was considered] a manager.


The first one just sounds better and far more natural.

e-GMAT wrote:The problem with focusing on idiomatic usage to analyze options is that our understanding of 'typically' correct idioms interferes with our understanding of the meaning that the option conveys. I would say that you need to be particularly careful about understanding the intended logic of the sentence when it makes a comparison.
Thanks for all your explanation, e-GMAT. Personally, I don't think the original sentence makes much sense. So, the Sacagawea dollar will be used more as a substitute for 4 quarters than for a dollar bill. What exactly does that concept even mean?? In real life, in what exact situations will it substitute for 4 quarters in a way that it will not substitute for a dollar bill??? :) The whole sentence seems half-baked to me.
1. the Sacagawea dollar coin will be used more as a substitute for four quarters rather than for the dollar bill => Comparison between 'four quarters' and 'the dollar bill'
2. its weight... is far less than four quarters => Comparison between 'its weight' and 'four quarters'

While the first comparison is logically correct
But that's kind of my point--the basics of the first comparison in choice A) are fine, so why monkey with the position of "more" as in choice C)?? Here's why: I think the test makers knew it sounds less natural. :)
So you can see, there's no justification for applying the 'more X than Y' logic here. In fact, I would say it's a misconception that this use is 'idiomatic'. Saying so implies that this structure is always correct, whereas really, it's correct only when it conveys the intended logic correctly.
The only problem in the first part of A) was the "rather"--otherwise it sounded fine, much better than C) IMO.
So, as you can see, going by idiomatic usage is unlikely to be the best way to solve a comparison question. Focusing on the logic behind the comparison is the way to go.

I hope this analysis helps!
Yes, it does. But I still don't think this is a very good question, though I do understand the points you made. The answer may be correct grammatically, but it doesn't sound right IMO.
GMATGuruNY wrote: Generally, more than serves to compare CLAUSES.
True, but couldn't one say the same thing about "more X than Y"? It is certainly not unusual to use the latter phrase with clauses.
The Sacagawea dollar coin will be used as a substitute for four quarters more than [the Sacagawea dollar coin will be used as a substitute] for the dollar bill.
The words in brackets are omitted, but their presence is implied.
Thus, the OA makes a perfectly logical comparison.
I will agree that it's logical, but it sounds stilted. Most people would never say it that way IMO.
The modifier in red functions as an APPOSITIVE.
An appositive is a word or phrase that serves to explain or define the preceding word or phrase.
Here, the implication is that only 8.1 grams can be defined as far less than four quarters [weigh].
The word in brackets is omitted, but its presence is implied.
Conveyed meanings:
The coin weighs only 8.1 grams.
The coin weighs far less than four quarters [weigh].
The portions in red are EQUIVALENT ways of expressing how much the coin WEIGHS.
Yes, I realize that it's an appositive, but it's a rather vague one that is open to more than one interpretation (i.e., what to insert in brackets and where) IMO, as I mentioned previously.

Anyway, thanks for your comments, Mitch. :)

I appreciate all the discussion that has been posted in response to my comments. To sum up, I just don't think this is a very good question. Yes, I can understand the reasoning behind choice C), but to me it's the "least bad" choice rather than the "best" one. ;)
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by aditya8062 » Tue May 20, 2014 2:04 am
Hi, Aditya. My point is that the construction in question just doesn't sound as idiomatic--at least to my ears. (Also, your example contains an "is"--this one does not. That word makes a big difference.) For instance, here's the following sentence:

Our boss was considered more a dictator than a manager.

vs.

Our boss was considered a dictator more than [he was considered] a manager.
well u r right that my example does contain the verb "is" and so is your example .also note that even the right answer contains the verb . "more than" is basically comparing the clauses so the "verb" has to be there
look at ur example : Our boss was considered a dictator more than [he was considered] a manager

more importantly if u really think that the verb "is" is making a huge difference then u should also think that in option C "will be" should make the difference

C says :Officials at the United States Mint believe that the Sacagawea dollar coin will be used as a substitute for four quarters more than for the dollar bill because it weighs only 8.1 grams, far less than four quarters, which weigh 5.67 grams each.
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by e-GMAT » Tue May 20, 2014 12:45 pm
fenway wrote:
Thanks for all your explanation, e-GMAT. Personally, I don't think the original sentence makes much sense. So, the Sacagawea dollar will be used more as a substitute for 4 quarters than for a dollar bill. What exactly does that concept even mean?? In real life, in what exact situations will it substitute for 4 quarters in a way that it will not substitute for a dollar bill??? :) The whole sentence seems half-baked to me.
The point that the author intends to convey is that this particular coin is going to act as an alternative for the four quarters in terms of the weight benefit it has on the weight of the quarters. The author does not intend to compare the monetary value of the new coin with that of the four quarters or the dollar bill. Also, I would be slightly cautious in ruling out the intended meaning of a GMAT SC question on anything but the logic of the sentence at hand.
But that's kind of my point--the basics of the first comparison in choice A) are fine, so why monkey with the position of "more" as in choice C)?? Here's why: I think the test makers knew it sounds less natural. :)
The first comparison is logically correct as it gives out one clear meaning and compares logically equivalent entities. Although, one can appreciate the humor behind your reasoning for the positioning of "more" :), I think it is dictated only by logic here. Let's try to explore this together:

1. We know that the new coin is going to be used as a substitute
2. We know that the substitution can be arguably for two entities - four quarters v/s dollar bill

Now the "substitution" part is set. The question here is what will the coin be more a substitute for: for the four quarters or for the dollar bill. And the answer, as per the author �, is that it will be a substitute more for the quarters than for the bill. Hence, the positioning of more is being determined by the logical intended comparison. An example on similar lines would be:

The new range of medicines offers a cost effective solution more for the middle-income group than for the lower-income group.

As per the example sentence, the new range of medicines definitely offers a cost-effective solution, but for whom is this cost-effectiveness more valid? Is it for the middle income group or the lower income group? The answer is more for the middle income group.

In all the positioning of "more" in the correct choice is in line with the intended comparison that the author wants to convey.

The only problem in the first part of A) was the "rather"--otherwise it sounded fine, much better than C) IMO.
At this point, I would like to urge you to re-read the explanation of the errors in choice A, as pointed out by Meghna. You will observe that the second comparison in choice A is not logical. As stated in her explanation, the comparison has to be between two logically parallel entities. In the context of this comparison the set of logically parallel entities are:

1) The new coin and four quarters
2) The weight of the new coin and the weight of the four quarters

What choice A does is compare one entity from set number 1 with another entity from set number 2. In other words, it compares four quarters (Set 1) with the weight of the new coin (Set 2). Hence, this comparison is not logical.
Yes, it does. But I still don't think this is a very good question, though I do understand the points you made. The answer may be correct grammatically, but it doesn't sound right IMO.
I can understand how one may have trouble accepting a sentence that sounds incorrect to the person. However, does GMAT reward choices made on such grounds? The answer as we all know is a big fat NO! And if you see, there is again some bit of underlying logic here. The "sound" logic is more subjective than objective. For example, many students have difficulty accepting the following comparison:

I am shorter than she.

The reason for their reluctance in accepting the above sentence as grammatically correct is because they have been saying "I am shorter than her" their entire lives and now they are supposed to keep that aside and accept the above sentence. However, the truth of the matter is that "I am shorter than she." is a perfectly correct sentence that is logical and grammatical.

Therefore, it is the demand of the objective pattern of the exam that GMAT rewards logic and certain set rules of written English.

Hope the above discussion helps! :)

Regards,

Neeti.
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by iongmat » Wed May 21, 2014 12:00 am
fenway4 wrote:It seems to me that all of the answers have problems. Isn't the proper idiom supposed to be "more X than Y"??

However, in C) we have:

"as a substitute for four quarters more than [as a substitute] for the dollar bill...."

So, that's "X more than Y" (instead of the usual "more X than Y"), which doesn't sound idiomatic to me. It also explains why I thought C) sounded very strange when I was reading through the choices.
Can you let me know how you got that impression that "X more than Y" is not idiomatic. Question 42, 48, 62 and many other questions in OG-13 use this.
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by manyu2409 » Wed May 21, 2014 1:24 am
iongmat wrote:
fenway4 wrote:It seems to me that all of the answers have problems. Isn't the proper idiom supposed to be "more X than Y"??

However, in C) we have:

"as a substitute for four quarters more than [as a substitute] for the dollar bill...."

So, that's "X more than Y" (instead of the usual "more X than Y"), which doesn't sound idiomatic to me. It also explains why I thought C) sounded very strange when I was reading through the choices.
Can you let me know how you got that impression that "X more than Y" is not idiomatic. Question 42, 48, 62 and many other questions in OG-13 use this.

Hi iongmat,

Both the expressions 'X more than Y' and 'more X than Y' are idiomatically correct. However, their usage are different.

More X than Y

I am more of a student than an expert.

He is more of a realist than an optimist.


X more than Y

Roger's income is more than that of Ron.



Hope this helps!:)
Manyu
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