Question about percents

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by bekkilyn » Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:38 pm
I agree with mpaudena. Dissect everything you do in practice! That's how you're going to learn exactly why the 1/100 is taken into account in that final equation. Learn exactly what's going on in all the algebra steps for each problem even if you end up plugging in numbers on an exam for more speed. If you don't see what's going on in the algebra, then that may be a sign to go back and brush up on some of those concepts too since they may be needed on a different question that you can't plug in.

It's possible you may be jumping ahead just a bit and that's why the difference between using 25 or 25/100 isn't getting clearer, but you're the one who will know if that's true or not.

Nevertheless, it does seem that you would always just use the 25 without the 1/100 when plugging into the answers for these types of equations. I'm very reluctant to use "always" though, considering that the GMAT likes to be tricky, so still take that remark with a grain of salt!

Where does this VIC strategy actually come from? Is it from one of the testing companies? And why do I keep wanting to call it "Variable Induced Coma"? :)

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by Stockmoose16 » Thu Oct 23, 2008 9:37 am
bekkilyn wrote:I agree with mpaudena. Dissect everything you do in practice! That's how you're going to learn exactly why the 1/100 is taken into account in that final equation. Learn exactly what's going on in all the algebra steps for each problem even if you end up plugging in numbers on an exam for more speed. If you don't see what's going on in the algebra, then that may be a sign to go back and brush up on some of those concepts too since they may be needed on a different question that you can't plug in.

It's possible you may be jumping ahead just a bit and that's why the difference between using 25 or 25/100 isn't getting clearer, but you're the one who will know if that's true or not.

Nevertheless, it does seem that you would always just use the 25 without the 1/100 when plugging into the answers for these types of equations. I'm very reluctant to use "always" though, considering that the GMAT likes to be tricky, so still take that remark with a grain of salt!

Where does this VIC strategy actually come from? Is it from one of the testing companies? And why do I keep wanting to call it "Variable Induced Coma"? :)
The VIC strategy comes from the testing companies. Manhattan has an entire book dedicated to it.

I'm still confused by the idea that the /100 is built into the algebra? How can you know, with certainty, that the /100 was put there to make a percent?

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by Stacey Koprince » Thu Oct 23, 2008 6:12 pm
I received a PM asking me to comment. I like the "variable induced coma" acronym a lot better. :)

If you pick numbers for a VIC, and the problem says something like "x percent of blah blah blah" then you literally pick something for x and x alone. If I say x=25, then every place in the problem where it says x, I now read that as 25 instead - literally pretend the problem no longer says x anywhere, in the text or in the answers. Instead, it says 25.

So I'd re-read the problem and it would actually say "25 percent of blah blah blah" - I'm ONLY substituting for the variable itself, not for the other words / concepts in the problem. When you do the math for that problem, you will actually use 25 as a percent, because that's what the problem tells you to do (since the word "percent" is in the problem after the number 25).

Eg, on the original VIC posted here:

z = 10
x = 40
y = 50

Go back and re-read the problem right now, substituting in the above values for the variables ONLY - notice that the word "percent" is still in the problem. Now do the math and notice that you will actually use those numbers above as percentages, once you do the math itself!

Started out costing $10. Then price raised 40 percent, so 10+ 10*(40/100) = 14. Then price decreased 50 percent, so 14 - (14)(50/100) = 7. Final price is 7. Go to my answers and plug in the values for the variables ONLY again:
A: [10,000(10) + (100)(10)(-10) - (10)(40)(50)]/10000 let's get rid of three zeroes first: [(10)(10) + (1)(1)(-10) - (1)(4)(5)]/10 = (100 - 10 - 20)/10 = 70/10 = 7. Bingo.
Now, use your knowledge that A did work to eliminate some other choices.
B is identical to A, except that it says y-x instead of x-y. Is that going to give you the exact same answer? No. B is wrong.
C is identical to A, except that the opening term (10,000z) is missing. That's also not going to give you the same answer, then.
D combines the two errors introduced in B and C. Unlikely to work, though you can check it if you want.
E: (10,000) / [(100)(50)(10) + (40)(50)] Denominator is bigger than numerator, so can't be 7.

As some people have noted above, if you don't have variables in the answers, then you don't pick numbers anyway - so the above doesn't matter. There, you either need to write out an equation and solve (and, yes, you'd write out the equation using the /100) or you'd use the answer choices to work backwards (in which case you may or may not have to write out an equation with something over 100).

Oh, and that problem about Jones elementary - it's not a typo. Part of the trick to the problem is that the number of total students is the same number used to describe the "x percent of boys" part of the problem.
90 = (x/100)B
B = 0.4x
two equations, two variables - plug and chug!
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by Ian Stewart » Thu Oct 23, 2008 11:35 pm
Long thread! Hopefully I can clear up any remaining confusion about percentages:

% or "per cent" means "per hundred". So if you see "25%", that means "25 per one hundred", or 25/100, or 0.25. Percents are simply ratios, expressed out of 100. If 25% of students at a school are seniors, then for every 100 students, 25 are seniors.

To express "x percent" algebraically, dividing by 100 is not optional. "x percent", or "x %", means "x/100". You do, however, often have the option of ignoring the 100 until the end of the problem. For example, we could solve the following in two ways:

If x percent of 32 is 40, what is x?

We could simply write:

(x/100)*32 = 40
x = 125

Or, we could solve the following, knowing in advance that the answer is not y:

32y = 40
y = 1.25

We've shown that y is equal to 1.25; that is, y is equal to the ratio of 1.25 to 1. To find x, we need to express this ratio as a percentage - per 100 - by multiplying by 100: 125 to 100. That is, if we plug in x instead of x/100, we will need to multiply our answer by 100 at the end of the problem.

Perhaps a more GMAT-like problem might help to illustrate:

If x percent of 40 is equal to y, what is y percent of x?

x percent means x/100, so "x percent of 40" means "(x/100)*40".

(x/100)*40 = y
x = 5y/2

We need to find y percent of x, which is equal to (y/100)*x. By substitution, this is equal to:

(y/100)(5y/2) = y^2/40

____

On a side note, I'd always thought that the percent symbol % came from rearranging the 'per hundred' fraction /00, transposing the slash and one zero to get 0/0. Turns out that's not true- thanks, wikipedia- and it actually arose from the Italian phrase per cento; this was abbreviated to 'p o', the p got flipped around, and we now have the % sign.
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by Stockmoose16 » Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:59 am
Stacey Koprince wrote:I received a PM asking me to comment. I like the "variable induced coma" acronym a lot better. :)

If you pick numbers for a VIC, and the problem says something like "x percent of blah blah blah" then you literally pick something for x and x alone. If I say x=25, then every place in the problem where it says x, I now read that as 25 instead - literally pretend the problem no longer says x anywhere, in the text or in the answers. Instead, it says 25.

So I'd re-read the problem and it would actually say "25 percent of blah blah blah" - I'm ONLY substituting for the variable itself, not for the other words / concepts in the problem. When you do the math for that problem, you will actually use 25 as a percent, because that's what the problem tells you to do (since the word "percent" is in the problem after the number 25).

Eg, on the original VIC posted here:

z = 10
x = 40
y = 50

Go back and re-read the problem right now, substituting in the above values for the variables ONLY - notice that the word "percent" is still in the problem. Now do the math and notice that you will actually use those numbers above as percentages, once you do the math itself!

Started out costing $10. Then price raised 40 percent, so 10+ 10*(40/100) = 14. Then price decreased 50 percent, so 14 - (14)(50/100) = 7. Final price is 7. Go to my answers and plug in the values for the variables ONLY again:
A: [10,000(10) + (100)(10)(-10) - (10)(40)(50)]/10000 let's get rid of three zeroes first: [(10)(10) + (1)(1)(-10) - (1)(4)(5)]/10 = (100 - 10 - 20)/10 = 70/10 = 7. Bingo.
Now, use your knowledge that A did work to eliminate some other choices.
B is identical to A, except that it says y-x instead of x-y. Is that going to give you the exact same answer? No. B is wrong.
C is identical to A, except that the opening term (10,000z) is missing. That's also not going to give you the same answer, then.
D combines the two errors introduced in B and C. Unlikely to work, though you can check it if you want.
E: (10,000) / [(100)(50)(10) + (40)(50)] Denominator is bigger than numerator, so can't be 7.

As some people have noted above, if you don't have variables in the answers, then you don't pick numbers anyway - so the above doesn't matter. There, you either need to write out an equation and solve (and, yes, you'd write out the equation using the /100) or you'd use the answer choices to work backwards (in which case you may or may not have to write out an equation with something over 100).

Oh, and that problem about Jones elementary - it's not a typo. Part of the trick to the problem is that the number of total students is the same number used to describe the "x percent of boys" part of the problem.
90 = (x/100)B
B = 0.4x
two equations, two variables - plug and chug!
Stacey,

Thanks for info. I went and solved the problem using straight algebra, re-arranging the variables rather than plugging in the numbers. The problem with that method is there are a number of ways to simplify the equation. With only 2 minutes to answer the question, it would be tough to perfectly simplify the algebraic equation to match the given answers. On the other hand, VIC isn't much easier with this problem. If you try to fill in numbers, you're dealing with fractions of 10,000, which can get complicated. What's the fastest way to solve this problem?

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by Stacey Koprince » Fri Oct 24, 2008 10:13 am
In this case, I do think the VIC method is the easiest, despite the annoying form of the answers.

Notice my discussion of the answer choices: I didn't have to do anything besides look at B, C, and D (and compare them to A's set-up) in order to eliminate them. And then, for E, all I had to do was write it out but not actually simplify it - I just thought about it before continuing to solve and realized it couldn't equal 7. So, I fully solved only one of the answer choices.

It's often the case, with VIC, that you do not have to solve every answer choice fully. (In fact, you should NOT do this.) Don't think of it as "I need to find out what number each answer choice equals." Instead, think of it as "I need to find the answer choice that equals 7." If, as you're looking at or working through a choice, you can tell that it's not going to equal 7 (or whatever you want for the problem you're doing), then cross off that choice immediately and move on to the next one. You can almost always avoid fully solving for at least two choices, and often three (or, if we get lucky, as in this case, four!).
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by Stockmoose16 » Fri Oct 24, 2008 10:16 am
Stacey Koprince wrote:In this case, I do think the VIC method is the easiest, despite the annoying form of the answers.

Notice my discussion of the answer choices: I didn't have to do anything besides look at B, C, and D (and compare them to A's set-up) in order to eliminate them. And then, for E, all I had to do was write it out but not actually simplify it - I just thought about it before continuing to solve and realized it couldn't equal 7. So, I fully solved only one of the answer choices.

It's often the case, with VIC, that you do not have to solve every answer choice fully. (In fact, you should NOT do this.) Don't think of it as "I need to find out what number each answer choice equals." Instead, think of it as "I need to find the answer choice that equals 7." If, as you're looking at or working through a choice, you can tell that it's not going to equal 7 (or whatever you want for the problem you're doing), then cross off that choice immediately and move on to the next one. You can almost always avoid fully solving for at least two choices, and often three (or, if we get lucky, as in this case, four!).
But let's say A wasn't the first answer choice, instead, it was one of the wrong answers. Would you have been able to tell, from solving B, which one of the other equations would come out to 7?

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by Stacey Koprince » Fri Oct 24, 2008 10:31 am
I still would've saved a lot of time after solving A, yes, because B, C, and D share significant parts. Re-use what you've already done.

So I'd go back and look at what I'd written out for A and say, ok, B is the same except that instead of x-y, we have y-x. So that one number, and only that one number, changes to +10 instead of -10. How does that change the outcome of the calculation?

Look at the second line of your work - okay, that one -10 is still intact and it should now say 10 instead. Everything else is the same. So move onto the third line - now we change that -10 to +10: (100 + 10 - 20)/10

And that's all that you really have to do here - just find the one small change and carry that through the problem. The only real math I have to do is right at the end.

Go look at some of these in OG. Whenever they give you ridiculous answer choices (as you have for this problem), there will be significant similarities between multiple choices, so you can re-use some of the work you already did. For others, you'll be able to estimate (as in E).

The whole point is that the test has to build in some shortcuts or there really wouldn't be an easier way to do the problem!
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by Stockmoose16 » Fri Oct 24, 2008 10:42 am
Stacey Koprince wrote:I still would've saved a lot of time after solving A, yes, because B, C, and D share significant parts. Re-use what you've already done.

So I'd go back and look at what I'd written out for A and say, ok, B is the same except that instead of x-y, we have y-x. So that one number, and only that one number, changes to +10 instead of -10. How does that change the outcome of the calculation?

Look at the second line of your work - okay, that one -10 is still intact and it should now say 10 instead. Everything else is the same. So move onto the third line - now we change that -10 to +10: (100 + 10 - 20)/10

And that's all that you really have to do here - just find the one small change and carry that through the problem. The only real math I have to do is right at the end.

Go look at some of these in OG. Whenever they give you ridiculous answer choices (as you have for this problem), there will be significant similarities between multiple choices, so you can re-use some of the work you already did. For others, you'll be able to estimate (as in E).

The whole point is that the test has to build in some shortcuts or there really wouldn't be an easier way to do the problem!
Stacey,

Quick question for you. Michael Dinerstein recommended I take the 750 MGMAT Advanced Quant one-day course. I'm currently scoring in the 70th percentile in the quant section. I just read a post you wrote a few months back that said students should be in the 80th percentile or above to take the class. Will I get any value out of this advanced course? I'm 3 weeks away from my real GMAT, and I can't seem to break the 700 barrier. I score between 82-91st percentile verbal, but I'm stuck at 70th percentile quant.

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by Stacey Koprince » Fri Oct 24, 2008 10:56 am
I generally do recommend that someone be scoring in the 80th+ percentile in order to get the most out of the quest for 750 workshops because these workshops touch on only a subset of difficult problems. I personally don't think you're as likely to see these problems in the first place unless you're scoring at the 80+ percentile already.

At the same time - I don't have actual research to back up this particular threshold. I just chose the 80th percentile based on a gut feeling, having worked with this stuff for a while. So maybe it will be helpful at the 70th percentile. Or maybe we're both wrong and it should be more like 90th percentile - I don't know for sure.

All of that is to say: I wouldn't necessarily argue with Mike, because there's room for reasonable disagreement here. But I'm still going to stick with my own general 80th percentile threshold when making recommendations about the quests.

If you do want to do a quest, you may want to look at the SC quest instead; your percentiles there look good. That could help raise your verbal score and get you closer to (if not over) that 700 threshold.
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by Stockmoose16 » Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:44 am
Stacey Koprince wrote:I generally do recommend that someone be scoring in the 80th+ percentile in order to get the most out of the quest for 750 workshops because these workshops touch on only a subset of difficult problems. I personally don't think you're as likely to see these problems in the first place unless you're scoring at the 80+ percentile already.

At the same time - I don't have actual research to back up this particular threshold. I just chose the 80th percentile based on a gut feeling, having worked with this stuff for a while. So maybe it will be helpful at the 70th percentile. Or maybe we're both wrong and it should be more like 90th percentile - I don't know for sure.

All of that is to say: I wouldn't necessarily argue with Mike, because there's room for reasonable disagreement here. But I'm still going to stick with my own general 80th percentile threshold when making recommendations about the quests.

If you do want to do a quest, you may want to look at the SC quest instead; your percentiles there look good. That could help raise your verbal score and get you closer to (if not over) that 700 threshold.
Stacey,

I've attached my MGMAT assessment report covering my last 4 CATS. Can you tell from this information whether I'd benefit from the SC ADVANCED course?

Problem Solving 88 46 41 1 52% 1:55 2:34 570 660
Data Sufficiency 60 29 31 0 48% 1:35 1:46 590 640
Sentence Correction 60 37 20 3 62% 1:29 1:37 660 710
Critical Reasoning 56 26 30 0 46% 1:53 2:17 670 720
Reading Comp 48 32 16 0 67% 1:52 2:01 630 690
QUANTITATIVE
CONTENT AREA Total Right Wrong % Right Average
39 24 15 62% 1:43 2:24
BEST Geometry 16 10 6 63% 1:34 1:43 FASTEST
WORST Number Properties 32 12 20 38% 1:58 2:14 SLOWEST
Algebra 33 15 17 45% 1:35 2:22
FDP's 28 14 14 50% 2:06 2:04 [/img]

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by Stacey Koprince » Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:09 pm
If you're scoring 60%+ with average difficulty levels in the high 600s to low 700s, then yes, you'd likely benefit from the SC Quest. Especially if your numbers have been getting better as you study more - so your numbers are better on your later CATs (and I'm assuming this is the case in making this assessment, but let me know if that's not the case).

Just a note - I also see that you're struggling a bit with NP and algebra. Those two areas are common on the test (especially NP), so definitely do some more work in those areas too.

Just a note for future (or to others): I see you tried to post this as an image file but the formatting got a little messed up and it posted as text instead. Text is FAR preferable to an image file on these forums, so keep doing text in the future. We can't read image files in the "topic review" (previous posts) section at the bottom of the "message reply" window, so we can't actually look at image files while we type replies!
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by Stockmoose16 » Fri Oct 24, 2008 4:13 pm
Stacey Koprince wrote:If you're scoring 60%+ with average difficulty levels in the high 600s to low 700s, then yes, you'd likely benefit from the SC Quest. Especially if your numbers have been getting better as you study more - so your numbers are better on your later CATs (and I'm assuming this is the case in making this assessment, but let me know if that's not the case).

Just a note - I also see that you're struggling a bit with NP and algebra. Those two areas are common on the test (especially NP), so definitely do some more work in those areas too.
Stacey,

My verbal scores have been up and down. I took a baseline test 12 weeks ago and scored 91st percentile. Then, on my next 3 tests -- taken under the exact same conditions -- I scored 72nd percentile. Then on the 5th test, roughly 2 weeks ago, I scored 91st percentile again. And last week, test #6, I scored 84th percentile. So unfortunately, my verbal scores are volatile. Can you give some insight into the advanced verbal class? What is taught that I wouldn't already know?

I honestly do not find the MGMAT verbal books very helpful. The MGMAT SC book is packed with info about participles and subjunctive tenses-- it's too technical. It's so much easier to just read the sentence and pick the answer that sounds correct. I know MGMAT warns students against using this method, but honestly, I'm answering 700+ level questions correctly, so I must be doing something right.

Also, regarding the math trouble I'm having (number properties and algebra), how do you recommend improving? I've gone through all the concept books and done 100s of questions. The problem I have is constructing the problems, not solving them (yes, I know, construction is the hard part). I find it difficult, if not impossible, to APPLY the concepts to individual problems. All the concepts make sense, but when I look at a problem, I rarely know how to set it up without making 5 or 6 different attempts.

I have 3 weeks until the GMAT, and I need some advice on how to best use my time so that I can score a 700. My last 3 CATS have been: 640, 690, 660 (respectively). The quant scores were all 70th percentile, but my verbal scores were 72nd percentile, 91st percentile, and 84th percentile, respectively. What is the best approach for me, given that I'm 3 weeks away from d-day?

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by Stacey Koprince » Sat Oct 25, 2008 7:32 pm
It's so much easier to just read the sentence and pick the answer that sounds correct. I know MGMAT warns students against using this method, but honestly, I'm answering 700+ level questions correctly, so I must be doing something right
Yes, but you also said your verbal scores are fluctuating and you're not sure why... :) Here's a possible reason why: you can't tell the difference between an answer choice that sounds right because it is right and one that sounds right because it's a trap.

Lots of people can use their ears to do a pretty good job, and sometimes a great job, on the verbal. But that performance is not necessarily consistent. You have to hope that you get a bit lucky. I can tell you that at least once per test, I read an SC choice and think "that sounds terrible - that can't be right" - but when I go look at the grammar (because I know that's what I have to do), I discover that the terrible-sounding one actually is right!

So the basic question there is: do you want to score a 700+? If not, keep using your ear. If so, it's dangerous to trust to luck.

Take a look at this link for a short description of the workshop and a sample problem: https://www.manhattangmat.com/EventShow. ... entID=2615

Generally, the workshop assumes you already know all of the basic grammar rules and focuses more on techniques for handling the most difficult and convoluted sentences.

Re: math, yes, setting things up is the hard part. Go back and look at problems you've already done. Take the time to figure out the best way to set up that particular problem (this may take you 5-10 minutes). Then, once you've found the best way to do it, go back and look at the structure of the problem itself and ask yourself how you're going to recognize this problem structure in the future on new problems. You'll see problems with a similar structure but different details - what might that look like? What are the clues in the words of this problem that tell you that you should use the "best" setup that you devised? How will you know to use this same setup again on new but similar problems in the future?

I'll paste something from another post I wrote as an example:
For instance, if you have these books, compare these two problems:
OG Quant review #39
OG 11th ed. #153

The first one is much easier than the second but both are testing the same concept: prime. (In fact, both questions can be rephrased: is this variable prime?) The statements are much harder to deal with in #153 and statement 2, in particular, requires some additional knowledge to solve, beyond what you need for #39. But the bones of the two problems are nearly identical (I'd be willing to bet money that the same person wrote both problems and was looking at or thinking about the first one when s/he wrote the second one).
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