BREAKING: Target Test Prep releases Brand New 2026 On Demand GMAT prep course

Redeem

question about relative pronouns

This topic has expert replies
Post new topic Locked
Previous Topic Next Topic
User avatar
Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts
Posts: 76
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:24 am
Thanked: 3 times

question about relative pronouns

by Amadalia » Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:08 am
Good day
Some environmentalists question the prudence of
exploiting features of the environment, arguing that
there are no economic benefits to be gained from
forests, mountains, or wetlands that no longer exist

My question is: Does "That no longer exist" apply to wetlands or to the other elements on the list as well? (can I generalise the answer to the other relative prounouns???)
Many thanks in advance
Top
Source: — Sentence Correction |
User avatar
Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2014 2:41 am
Location: Delhi, India
Thanked: 13 times
Followed by:4 members

by tathastuGMAT » Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:07 am
Hi Amaldia,

This is a CR question. One should not mix GMAT's SC with CR because there are many places in GMAT CR/RC where GMAC doesn't use SC rules.

As per GMAT SC the given sentence is not a very good choice because of the confusion placement of the modifier because this modifier logically fits with all the 3 items of the list.
Well as per modifier rules this modifier(starts with relative pronoun) should modify the immediately preceding noun. So, this modifier is only for wetlands.
Consider if each of the elements need their own modifier then how would you write that?

Sentence: ...........economic benefits to be gained from forests MODIFIER1, mountains MODIFIER2, or wetlands MODIFIER3
In this particular case only MODIFIER3 is given but not the first two.

I reiterate, plz stick to GMAT SC for SC rules.

-tathastuGMAT
People don't fail, they just give up. Never give up!

www.tathastugmat.com
Top
Legendary Member
Posts: 774
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:32 am
Thanked: 46 times
Followed by:14 members

by aditya8062 » Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:05 am
here "that no longer exist" applies to all and not just to wetlands !!
u can conclude this by deciphering the meaning of the sentence .the question is arguing that there are no economic benefits to be gained from something that don't even exist
also note that it is not mandatory for "that" clause to just refer to attached nouns ."that" can refer to far flung nouns !!
Top
User avatar
Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2014 2:41 am
Location: Delhi, India
Thanked: 13 times
Followed by:4 members

by tathastuGMAT » Fri Apr 25, 2014 6:53 am
Hi Aditya8062,

Thanks for adding your point.
I would like to understand if I want "that no longer exist" modifier only for wetlands then how can I do so without modifying the remaining sentence?

Also how do you see the following sentence:
...........economic benefits to be gained from forests which are dead, mountains of Himalyas, or wetlands that no longer exist

Does "that no longer exist" still modify all the items of the list? If not, why?

Plz help!
People don't fail, they just give up. Never give up!

www.tathastugmat.com
Top
Legendary Member
Posts: 774
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:32 am
Thanked: 46 times
Followed by:14 members

by aditya8062 » Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:00 am
Also how do you see the following sentence:
...........economic benefits to be gained from forests which are dead, mountains of Himalyas, or wetlands that no longer exist
this sentence does not seem correct ---> usage of "which" is wrong .also "mountain of himalayas" is wordy
also you need to read the original sentence in eternity .what i have said about "that" is based on meaning .
in fact ur this line :Well as per modifier rules this modifier(starts with relative pronoun) should modify the immediately preceding noun. violates some standard question of gmat .i dont have the OG right now but u can check #50 of diagnostic SC .
Top
User avatar
Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2014 2:41 am
Location: Delhi, India
Thanked: 13 times
Followed by:4 members

by tathastuGMAT » Sat Apr 26, 2014 2:11 am
aditya8062 wrote:
Also how do you see the following sentence:
...........economic benefits to be gained from forests which are dead, mountains of Himalyas, or wetlands that no longer exist
this sentence does not seem correct ---> usage of "which" is wrong .also "mountain of himalayas" is wordy
also you need to read the original sentence in eternity .what i have said about "that" is based on meaning .
in fact ur this line :Well as per modifier rules this modifier(starts with relative pronoun) should modify the immediately preceding noun. violates some standard question of gmat .i dont have the OG right now but u can check #50 of diagnostic SC .
Hi Aditya,

Let me add few points:
1) The question cited by the author of this thread is not a GMAT SC question. This is a CR question on which GMAT doesn't apply all the SC rules which we see in Sentence Correction. Therefore, the original question doesn't tell whether the modifier "that no longer exist" is for all the 3 items of the list or the last one.

As you said it is for all the items for sure, I tried to add modifiers to each element of the list and asked you whether the aforementioned modifier still modifies all the elements of the list? If not, then why?
In the following sentence there are 3 elements(same as original). All 3 are still nouns so parallel.
I have just added modifiers to each of the element. The point I want to make is that the original sentence isn't correct and in case we have to consider that then "that no longer exist" is a modifier for last element. If what I am saying is not correct then how would you write this sentence in which I wish to add the modifier "that no longer exist" only for the last element?

...........economic benefits to be gained from forests which are dead, mountains of Himalayas, or wetlands that no longer exist

Also, how "which" is wrong here. "which are dead" is a modifier for forests. Anyway if you wish you may replace "which" with "that". And "of Himalayas" is a modifier for mountains.

(2) "that" may modify far flung nouns --> this is true. I wrote that in general context coz on GMAT 90% of the relative pronoun modifiers modify immediately preceding nouns but they may modify nouns which are placed far away as long as the sentence makes sense.
People don't fail, they just give up. Never give up!

www.tathastugmat.com
Top
Legendary Member
Posts: 774
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:32 am
Thanked: 46 times
Followed by:14 members

by aditya8062 » Sat Apr 26, 2014 8:11 pm
This is a CR question on which GMAT doesn't apply all the SC rules which we see in Sentence Correction.
well i am not sure what for ur contending .the sentence has to be either right or wrong as per GMAC rules.the sentence as is written is oki

i guess while reading that SC ur missing a larger picture -i.e , you not taking meaning into consideration .
If what I am saying is not correct then how would you write this sentence in which I wish to add the modifier "that no longer exist" only for the last element?
if u intend to write the sentence the way u r trying then parallelism will take care of that .always remember that parallelism is absolute and when u put something in parallel then the meaning has to be read in that parallel way .
I wrote that in general context coz on GMAT 90% of the relative pronoun modifiers modify immediately preceding nouns
this is also very misleading .this is something like saying that "being" is incorrect or that passive voice is considered wrong !! .always decipher the meaning to make decisions
Also, how "which" is wrong here
"which" by itself must follow a comma .however "preposition+which" may or may not follow a comma !!
example : on the table is a box,which contains all my paperwork ---->correct
on the table is a box which contains all my paperwork --->wrong

on the table is a box in which i keep all my paperwork --->correct
Top
User avatar
Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2014 2:41 am
Location: Delhi, India
Thanked: 13 times
Followed by:4 members

by tathastuGMAT » Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:28 pm
I refrain from arguing further on this and would like to stick to my choice until get an expert answer.

"which" by itself must follow a comma.
I think you need to correct this. "Must" is a very strong word and will be misleading.
Please refer Question 10, OG12 explanation. For your comfort I am copying it below.

Carnivorous mammals can endure what would
otherwise be lethal levels of body heat because they
have a heat-exchange network which kept the brain
from getting too hot.
(A) which kept
(B) that keeps
(C) which has kept
(D) that has been keeping
(E) having kept

Verb form; Rhetorical construction
The use of the past tense (kept) is incorrect
because a current situation is discussed; the
present tense (keeps) is consistent with the other
verbs in the sentence. In (A) and (C), which
introduces a restrictive clause. Some writers
follow the convention that which can only be used
for nonrestrictive clauses, but insistence on this
rule is controversial, and both (A) and (C) can be
rejected on other grounds.
People don't fail, they just give up. Never give up!

www.tathastugmat.com
Top
Legendary Member
Posts: 774
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:32 am
Thanked: 46 times
Followed by:14 members

by aditya8062 » Sun Apr 27, 2014 12:06 am
I think you need to correct this. "Must" is a very strong word and will be misleading.
Please refer Question 10, OG12 explanation. For your comfort I am copying it below.
well here i will reiterate what RON has said multiple times :the questions of OG are written by best people and the solution are really not that great (probably written by their B team) .in fact on multiple times OG solutions have been self contradictory .so solve the question with the guidance of greats such as RON ,GMAT GURU ,stacey ,ceilidh.erickson,Tommy and many other manhattan and veritas experts etc

also the point about "which" has been testified by RON .
i will appreciate if u can produce any OG problem that uses "which" the way u r telling .
in fact the question u have cited has B as its answer
Top
User avatar
Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2014 2:41 am
Location: Delhi, India
Thanked: 13 times
Followed by:4 members

by tathastuGMAT » Sun Apr 27, 2014 12:42 am
it's ok Aditya. I wouldn't like to argue any more. You be happy with RON etc. I am fine with the inferior solutions, which as per you from OGs.
If you think OG answers are wrong so I wouldn't like to argue anymore. I will keep following OG. OG solutions can be incomplete but can never be wrong.
(B) is the right answer for other reasons which is mentioned explicitly probably you didn't want to see that.

Anyway, thanks for your efforts.
People don't fail, they just give up. Never give up!

www.tathastugmat.com
Top
Legendary Member
Posts: 774
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:32 am
Thanked: 46 times
Followed by:14 members

by aditya8062 » Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:22 am
You be happy with RON etc.
please refrain from making such statements .i expect more decent rebuttals .i had requested u to produce an example from OG that has used "which" the way u r defining . if u cannot then its oki .
Top
User avatar
Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2014 2:41 am
Location: Delhi, India
Thanked: 13 times
Followed by:4 members

by tathastuGMAT » Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:47 am
sure
Last edited by tathastuGMAT on Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
People don't fail, they just give up. Never give up!

www.tathastugmat.com
Top
User avatar
Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2014 2:41 am
Location: Delhi, India
Thanked: 13 times
Followed by:4 members

by tathastuGMAT » Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:49 am
And let's discuss the issue in hand, if possible.
That will really add value to our knowledge as well as others'.

If you find any problem with any of my comments then plz PM me.
People don't fail, they just give up. Never give up!

www.tathastugmat.com
Top
User avatar
Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts
Posts: 77
Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2013 12:32 pm
Location: Orange, TX
Thanked: 66 times
Followed by:4 members
GMAT Score:760

by ilyana » Sun Apr 27, 2014 3:08 pm
Hello!
Some environmentalists question the prudence of
exploiting features of the environment, arguing that
there are no economic benefits to be gained from
forests, mountains, or wetlands that no longer exist

My question is: Does "That no longer exist" apply to wetlands or to the other elements on the list as well?
I think there are no rules as to what "that"-modifier modifies in such constructions. Here, logically (from the context), we can deduce that it modifies all nouns in the list (forests, mountains, or wetlands), as was pointed out by Aditya8062.

However, I think it is possible to construct a similar sentence acceptable on the GMAT in which "that" modifies only the last element:
George left at home his documents, money, and a ticket that he obtained previously for this very occasion.

"That" is a relatively flexible modifier and can modify many things (nouns) depending on the context. If I saw a sentence and could figure out from the meaning the correct antecedent for "that" (and this "rightful" antecedent were not separated from "that" by a verb), then I wouldn't eliminate on the issue of modifiers.

However, it might be useful to pay attention to the verb in "that"-clause (whether it agrees in number with "its" noun) -- check problem 96 in OG Verbal Review, second edition.
how would you write this sentence in which I wish to add the modifier "that no longer exist" only for the last element?
Hello, TathastuGMAT! If I understand you correctly, you want for "that no longer exist" to modify explicitly only one element ("wetlands"). If this is the case, my suggestion is to put this element first in the list: wetlands that no longer exist, forests, or mountains.

I agree with Aditya8062 that "which" by itself should be followed by a comma on the GMAT.

For myself, I have chosen not to rely much on OG explanations (but I usually read them nonetheless). However, we can rely on OG problems themselves (and their correct answers) because they are official problems. Never once did I come across a problem in which "which" is used (by itself) as a restrictive modifier (=without a comma).

Some problems with "which":
OG13: N 12, 48, 73, 102, 106
OG Verbal Review, second edition: 71, 75, 88, 90, 92, 100
Please click on "Thank" button if you think my post is helpful.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/ilyana-anderson-481846127/
Top
Post new topic Locked
• Page 1 of 1