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Poker as an Extracurricular Activity?

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Poker as an Extracurricular Activity?

by Ypestis » Fri Sep 24, 2010 10:11 am
Hi all,

Im compiling my applications and Im curious what your take is on this. I have played poker as my main source of income for the past 7 years. I played live through undergrad (payed for school, no loans here!) and multi table 10-20 NLHE online now. Poker has gained quite a bit of respect in the last few years and has made a seperation away from the realm of 'gambling'.

As it requires a considerable amount of mathematics, personal skills, and game theory should I include this on my application? Would admissions personell look upon this favorably? Unfavorably? (I have remained employed through this period so there are no gaps)

Thanks in advance.

Patrick
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by Jessica@VeritasPrep » Fri Sep 24, 2010 11:22 am
Personally, I think that it is fine to include this. I'm curious that you say it was the main source of your income but that you were also employed for the whole period. I assume if poker was your main source of income that you would consider yourself somewhat of a "professional" poker player and not an amateur. I'd just be careful that whatever you write about poker puts you in a professional and responsible light. It is true that poker takes more skill than the average gambling game, but, some people may still not give it a great deal of respect. Gambling itself still has negative connotations so you want to be careful to show that you are disciplined and that what you do is more of a sport or skill than a "gamble" (this could make an interesting essay about risk taking v. gambling in business?).

I'd be curious what others think of this. Maybe it is best left as one line under the additional section of the resume (and it would be an interesting line - one I'm sure you'd get asked about in an interview! "paid for school by playing poker"!).

I'm sure this goes without saying, but, just make sure that all of your poker activity and income is legal - particularly if you make claims like paying for school but then never claimed the income or paid the taxes! A business school doesn't want a future alum who may end up in jail for tax evasion :-).

J
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by Ypestis » Fri Sep 24, 2010 12:31 pm
Jessica@VeritasPrep wrote:Personally, I think that it is fine to include this. I'm curious that you say it was the main source of your income but that you were also employed for the whole period. I assume if poker was your main source of income that you would consider yourself somewhat of a "professional" poker player and not an amateur. I'd just be careful that whatever you write about poker puts you in a professional and responsible light. It is true that poker takes more skill than the average gambling game, but, some people may still not give it a great deal of respect. Gambling itself still has negative connotations so you want to be careful to show that you are disciplined and that what you do is more of a sport or skill than a "gamble" (this could make an interesting essay about risk taking v. gambling in business?).

I'd be curious what others think of this. Maybe it is best left as one line under the additional section of the resume (and it would be an interesting line - one I'm sure you'd get asked about in an interview! "paid for school by playing poker"!).

I'm sure this goes without saying, but, just make sure that all of your poker activity and income is legal - particularly if you make claims like paying for school but then never claimed the income or paid the taxes! A business school doesn't want a future alum who may end up in jail for tax evasion :-).

J
Jessica,

Thanks for the insight! To clarify I remained employed but the earnings Ive taken from the game have far exceeded my meager salary. I suppose anyone who is beating the game can brand themselves as a 'professional', however, I have remained reluctant to do so in an effort to keep it truly extra-curricular. I didnt keep records through school but with online play everything is tracked and reported and yes, taxes are taken out. As far as the gambling aspect I set up a strict bankroll managenment system similar to the one used for my investments, but far more stringent. I would only play a game if I could buy in for 100 big blinds and I would never risk more than 5% of my total bankroll in a given game. So for instance if I had 10k I could risk 500 max in a game. At 100 big blinds the largest game I could play is 2-5. Once my bankroll was large enough I would move up a level following the same principles. If I lost a session or two I would move down a level. This way I ensured I would be able to weather the variance involved by playing with strong mathematically based plays.

An additional aspect that may or may not be relevant is I formed a poker team of 5 players and mentored them from amateurs to winning players. I back their play in local tournaments and they get to keep 25% of their winnings. 25% goes back into the group for funding events and the other 50% goes to a featured charity for the month. Would this be a useful topic to include in an essay as an 'off the beaten path' extra-curricular activity that required not only fiscal responsibility but strong leadership and organizational skills? The group was founded in 2007 and to date we have raised over 50k for local charities.

Should I include this or just stay away from the whole poker aspect in general?


Thanks again for everyones input!

Patrick
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by Jessica@VeritasPrep » Fri Sep 24, 2010 12:50 pm
Again, I love the story (and the charity aspect is great as well). The guys who started pokerstars.net or all those other sites would be fantastic b-school candidates. I'd have no problem with an essay about your life with poker. It is all in the framing, but, I don't think you need to steer clear of it. Remember, this is a part of you, and, if a school doesn't like an honest and responsible essay about something that is your passion then maybe that school isn't the best fit for you.
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by ecoguru1 » Fri Sep 24, 2010 5:11 pm
In my opinion, you can mention it because it may differentiate you. However, I really don't see how this would add much value to your application. Does it help your GMAT if it's low? No. Would it help your GPA? No. Does is it show leadership? Not really. Does it show teamwork? Definitely not. Does it show communication skills? Definitely not. Does it show that you have made society better? No. Does it show management skills? Maybe time management.

Poker, by itself, in the context of business and business skills doesn't really add much value. However, if you aspire to be a trader, have great scores, and great professional experience, poker may actually add value to your application. I think the question is how does it fit into the overall picture of your profile and application. How does it add value to your short and long term goals? If poker doesn't fit in, well, it's just a side note and may differentiate your from other applicants with a similar profile. I don't think it will offset other weaknesses.
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by Jessica@VeritasPrep » Fri Sep 24, 2010 6:49 pm
I actually think that your experiences with poker do have relevance. First of all, any activity that you spend substantial time on over many years is very relevant and gives you another "dimension". And, there are many skills in cards that are very relevant in business - as you mentioned, statistics are incredibly important in poker. Personal skills (analyzying the movements of others if you are playing computer poker and not a real table game), negotiating, calculated risk-taking, strategy - all of these are essential in both business and poker. I think there is a great deal of relevance.

I hope you don't mind, but, I actually mentioned your question to a few of my friends at dinner tonight (including my Booth educated husband) - all felt like it was extremely relevant and would have a positive impact on your application. The entrepreneurial aspect is what stood out most, but, the basic analytical skills are also good.

I agree that one extracurricular activity will not necessarily offset a low GMAT or a low GPA, but, an Adcom is not admitting a GMAT score or a grade point average, they admit a person and they evaluate all components (including extracurriculars - including the unconventional!).
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by Ypestis » Sat Sep 25, 2010 9:14 am
GMAT 710/GPA 3.8 Biochem

Not trying to cover any weaknesses with it, just curious if it would be relevant. Thanks again for the replies! and Jessica, thank you for seeking an opinion outside of this forum. I appreciate the efforts!

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by Alexbr@ClearAdmit » Fri Aug 28, 2015 11:53 pm
I agree with Jessica on this. Especially the mentor aspect and the charity sponsorship. Working that into an essay, then using your poker prowess as the backdrop to the essay, might be the way to go.

When I saw the subject title, my initial reaction was "no way". But obviously poker is a pretty big part of who you are. Think of what the game has taught you, what you have learned. If nothing else, it does seem that you have learned good discipline. cheers, alex
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