what is the definition of verb-ed modifier

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vishal.pathak: Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts; Posts: 176; Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 5:32 am; Thanked: 5 times

by vishal.pathak » Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:22 am

what is the definition of verb-ed modifiers?

The loan company announced it would soon lend money to borrowers with proven records of not paying back their loans on time, a group , collectively known as the subprime lending market

In the above sentence, why is the modifier 'collectively known as ..' a verb-ed modifier

Regards,
Vishal

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GmatVerbal: Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts; Posts: 138; Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:07 amFollowed by: 3 members; Thanked: 19 times

by GmatVerbal » Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:49 pm

past participle modifiers are "ed" modifiers and present participle modifiers are "ing" modifiers;

But some english words don't have 'ed' ending in their participle forms, but the modifiers with such words are still called 'ed' modifiers;

In the given sentence 'known' is a past participle of know;
The word 'collectively' ( (adverb)) might have confused you. It is just a pre-modifier to 'known'

The loan company announced it would soon lend money to borrowers with proven records of not paying back their loans on time, a group , collectively known as the subprime lending market

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vishal.pathak: Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts; Posts: 176; Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 5:32 am; Thanked: 5 times

by vishal.pathak » Mon Dec 19, 2011 5:08 am

GmatVerbal wrote:past participle modifiers are "ed" modifiers and present participle modifiers are "ing" modifiers;

But some english words don't have 'ed' ending in their participle forms, but the modifiers with such words are still called 'ed' modifiers;

In the given sentence 'known' is a past participle of know;
The word 'collectively' ( (adverb)) might have confused you. It is just a pre-modifier to 'known'

The loan company announced it would soon lend money to borrowers with proven records of not paying back their loans on time, a group , collectively known as the subprime lending market

Isn't ' a group, collectively .. ' , a noun + noun modifier. How should be classify this. Is it a noun + noun modifier or a verb-ed modifier

Regards,
Vishal

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GmatVerbal: Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts; Posts: 138; Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:07 amFollowed by: 3 members; Thanked: 19 times

by GmatVerbal » Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:42 am

1) a group collectively known as the subprime lending market --> this is a noun + noun modifier ( note the missing comma between "a group" and "collectively known as..."

noun: a group; ed modifier(adjectival modifier) : collectively known as the subprime lending market

2) a group , collectively known as the subprime lending market : these are two phrases

noun: a group
ed modifier: collectively known as the subprime lending market

First phrase is the form noun + noun modifier ( noun modifier is an embedded ed modifier)

In the second set of phrases - two separate modifiers; no noun+noun modifier present;

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vishal.pathak: Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts; Posts: 176; Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 5:32 am; Thanked: 5 times

by vishal.pathak » Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:25 am

GmatVerbal wrote:1) a group collectively known as the subprime lending market --> this is a noun + noun modifier ( note the missing comma between "a group" and "collectively known as..."

noun: a group; ed modifier(adjectival modifier) : collectively known as the subprime lending market

2) a group , collectively known as the subprime lending market : these are two phrases

noun: a group
ed modifier: collectively known as the subprime lending market

First phrase is the form noun + noun modifier ( noun modifier is an embedded ed modifier)

In the second set of phrases - two separate modifiers; no noun+noun modifier present;

So are we saying that any phrase which has the past participle forms of the verbs are verb-ed modifiers. These modifiers could be abverb or adjective or prepositional phrases or clauses.

Regards,
Vishal

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GmatVerbal: Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts; Posts: 138; Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:07 amFollowed by: 3 members; Thanked: 19 times

by GmatVerbal » Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:20 am

I hope I am not putting an experts hat here, because I am not one of those. With that said,

Your statement is so generalized and using words like phrases and clauses which have different meaning depending on whom you are talking to. So keep the definition simple. An ed modifier is a past participle phrase acting as a modifier.

From your posts I understand that there is a general confusion on different type of phrases.
I would suggest you to go to following link( or refer any good resources on English grammar):

https://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/phrases.htm

Modifiers need not be all the time single words and they tack onto "pre" and "post" modifiers but still retain their main characteristic. Identifying an head word helps to understand what type of a phrase it is and how it is behaving. Sometimes, it is easy to how it is modifying and understand what type it is.

Coming to participle phrases, consider another example ( quoting from the link:
https://www.english.ucalgary.ca/grammar/ ... e/2_4d.htm )

Examples:

That dog keenly hunting the ducks must be a thoroughbred.
participial: hunting
object: the ducks (the D.O. of the participial)
modifier: keenly (an adverb modifiying the participial)

participial phrase: keenly hunting the ducks

Hidden by the trees, Jerry waited to scare Mark.
participial: hidden
modifier: by the trees (a prepositional phrase
modifying "hidden")

participial phrase: hidden by the trees (an adjective
modifying "Jerry")

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vishal.pathak: Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts; Posts: 176; Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 5:32 am; Thanked: 5 times

by vishal.pathak » Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:01 am

GmatVerbal wrote:I hope I am not putting an experts hat here, because I am not one of those. With that said,

Your statement is so generalized and using words like phrases and clauses which have different meaning depending on whom you are talking to. So keep the definition simple. An ed modifier is a past participle phrase acting as a modifier.

From your posts I understand that there is a general confusion on different type of phrases.
I would suggest you to go to following link( or refer any good resources on English grammar):

https://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/phrases.htm

Modifiers need not be all the time single words and they tack onto "pre" and "post" modifiers but still retain their main characteristic. Identifying an head word helps to understand what type of a phrase it is and how it is behaving. Sometimes, it is easy to how it is modifying and understand what type it is.

Coming to participle phrases, consider another example ( quoting from the link:
https://www.english.ucalgary.ca/grammar/ ... e/2_4d.htm )

Examples:

That dog keenly hunting the ducks must be a thoroughbred.
participial: hunting
object: the ducks (the D.O. of the participial)
modifier: keenly (an adverb modifiying the participial)

participial phrase: keenly hunting the ducks

Hidden by the trees, Jerry waited to scare Mark.
participial: hidden
modifier: by the trees (a prepositional phrase
modifying "hidden")

participial phrase: hidden by the trees (an adjective
modifying "Jerry")

My confusion is not regarding what phrases are but regarding verb-ed modifiers. English grammar does not have a term called verb-ed modifier but here , may be to simplify make the process of learning, we talk about verb-ed modifiers and associate specific characteristics with it. Now form the looks of it, verb-ed modifier looked like any modifier which STARTED with a verb-ed (past participle form of the verb). But this example changed everything for me. Here the modifier starts with 'collectively' which is an adjective modifying 'group'. But as you pointed out, it is followed by a past participle form of the verb 'know'. So from this, I concluded that any kind of modifier with a past participle verb becomes a verb-ed modifier. It is important for me to be clear on this classification because there are certain characteristics associated with different kind of modifiers.

So my problem really is,
1. what are verb-ed modifiers. What is the defination of verb-ed modifier and how does 'a group, collectively known as.. ' fall into this category
2. where did you get the definition that a noun followed by an adjectival phrase but having a comma after the noun cannot be classified as noun + noun modifier. Technically, even without the comma, we do have a noun and a noun modifier (adjectival phrase)

Regards,
Vishal

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vishal.pathak: Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts; Posts: 176; Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 5:32 am; Thanked: 5 times

by vishal.pathak » Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:10 am

vishal.pathak wrote:
GmatVerbal wrote:I hope I am not putting an experts hat here, because I am not one of those. With that said,

Your statement is so generalized and using words like phrases and clauses which have different meaning depending on whom you are talking to. So keep the definition simple. An ed modifier is a past participle phrase acting as a modifier.

From your posts I understand that there is a general confusion on different type of phrases.
I would suggest you to go to following link( or refer any good resources on English grammar):

https://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/phrases.htm

Modifiers need not be all the time single words and they tack onto "pre" and "post" modifiers but still retain their main characteristic. Identifying an head word helps to understand what type of a phrase it is and how it is behaving. Sometimes, it is easy to how it is modifying and understand what type it is.

Coming to participle phrases, consider another example ( quoting from the link:
https://www.english.ucalgary.ca/grammar/ ... e/2_4d.htm )

Examples:

That dog keenly hunting the ducks must be a thoroughbred.
participial: hunting
object: the ducks (the D.O. of the participial)
modifier: keenly (an adverb modifiying the participial)

participial phrase: keenly hunting the ducks

Hidden by the trees, Jerry waited to scare Mark.
participial: hidden
modifier: by the trees (a prepositional phrase
modifying "hidden")

participial phrase: hidden by the trees (an adjective
modifying "Jerry")
My confusion is not regarding what phrases are but regarding verb-ed modifiers. English grammar does not have a term called verb-ed modifier but here , may be to simplify make the process of learning, we talk about verb-ed modifiers and associate specific characteristics with it. Now form the looks of it, verb-ed modifier looked like any modifier which STARTED with a verb-ed (past participle form of the verb). But this example changed everything for me. Here the modifier starts with 'collectively' which is an adjective modifying 'group'. But as you pointed out, it is followed by a past participle form of the verb 'know'. So from this, I concluded that any kind of modifier with a past participle verb becomes a verb-ed modifier. It is important for me to be clear on this classification because there are certain characteristics associated with different kind of modifiers.

So my problem really is,
1. what are verb-ed modifiers. What is the defination of verb-ed modifier and how does 'a group, collectively known as.. ' fall into this category
2. where did you get the definition that a noun followed by an adjectival phrase but having a comma after the noun cannot be classified as noun + noun modifier. Technically, even without the comma, we do have a noun and a noun modifier (adjectival phrase)

Regards,
Vishal

A related request is, can you please pen the exhaustive list of possible modifiers that we may encounter in GMAT exam. What are the different kind of modifiers

Thanks in advance for your help

Regards,
Vishal

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GmatVerbal: Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts; Posts: 138; Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:07 amFollowed by: 3 members; Thanked: 19 times

by GmatVerbal » Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:12 am

collectively -- adverb ( https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/collective )

So my problem really is,
1. what are verb-ed modifiers. What is the defination of verb-ed modifier and how does 'a group, collectively known as.. ' fall into this category
>>> "a group, collectively known as ..." is not an ed modifier.
"collectively known an ...." is a participle phrase -- some people call it ed modifier.
(https://www.grammar-quizzes.com/passive4.html )
a group -> a noun phrase

2. where did you get the definition that a noun followed by an adjectival phrase but having a comma after the noun cannot be classified as noun + noun modifier. Technically, even without the comma, we do have a noun and a noun modifier (adjectival phrase)
>>> I don't think I read anywhere. But I asked my self some fundamental questions:
What is a modifier? What is the structure of it? What is the role of a comma in a sentence? How a list is represented? Can modifiers be stacked? Can a list of modifiers act as a compound single modifier

My suggestion is don't get caught up in the definition, look for how a certain group of words are acting together and conveying the meaning. If the group of words are not providing you the intended meaning may be that is not right choice.

For the below phrases ask the question what is a comma doing in the first one
1) a group, collectively known as..
2) a group collectively known as..

Regards,
Vishal

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