the BTG experts

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the BTG experts

by pemdas » Tue Feb 07, 2012 2:31 pm
In how many ways the BTG experts - Ron of MGMAT, Anurag of Gurome, Stuart of Kaplan, Mike of Magoosh, Rich of Knewton, and Mitch of Princeton Review can be seated in a row such that Mike and Stuart are not seated next to each other as well as Annurag and Ron are not seated next to each other?

A 336 (revised in view of the recent enlightenment by Mike, expert@Magoosh)
B 396
C 576
D 624
E 696

made up

suggested correct answer A
Last edited by pemdas on Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by neerajkumar1_1 » Wed Feb 08, 2012 1:05 am
total number of cases 6! = 720

If Mike and Stuart are not sitting next to each other the number of case left will be
720 - 4! x 2 = 720 - 48 = 672

Now if Anurag and Ron also are not seated next to each other the number of cases to subtract will decrease further.. Hence total number of cases will increase.

Given the options, only option e is greater than 672.

Hence: IMO: E

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by neerajkumar1_1 » Wed Feb 08, 2012 1:14 am
Oops ... Did a calculation mistake

If Ron and Anurag and Stuart and Mike are sitting together.
The total group can be arrange = 4! x 2 x 2 = 96 (multiplied by 2 for each R A,A R and S M,M S arrangement)

So total - specific cases = 624

IMO: D

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by pemdas » Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:29 am
@neerajkumar1_1, nice logic
the same solution i have
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by LalaB » Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:41 pm
have a question :)

as far as I know "as well as" means "and". so, the q. stem implies that these 4 guys dont want to seat with each other simultaneously (Mike with Stuart , AND Annurag with Ron).
but ur approach is total - (either 2 guys or the other 2 guys).
did I misinterpret the q. stem? It is possible that I am wrong,since I am not really good at comb&perm.

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by pemdas » Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:20 pm
Lala, you can't be wrong as your avatar is amazing :)

now about the question, if it were 'either-either" case, then we could clue only one pair to get 5!*2C1 and would double this. Since we clue (join) two pairs we get all participants involved.
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by LalaB » Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:16 am
hm,I am stuck . I seem to be obsessed with some wild, abnormal ideas...moreover, I seem to try to invent a bike heh.
dont mind if we think about it together?

ur way of thinking (case 1)-
Mike and Stuart //Annurag and Ron //Rich //Mitch-4 groups

7!-4!2!2!
here u mean that total minus 4 groups= guys from group 1 and group 2 dont want to seat with each other respectively.

ok, but what about case 2-we have 3 groups?

Mike and Stuart +Annurag and Ron //Rich //Mitch

it is wrong,since according to the q.stem these guys -Mike and Stuart +Annurag and Ron-can seat with one another, right?
ok,then using the logic above (case 1), we can conclude that total minus 3 groups=4 guys from group1 dont want to seat with one another. though we can get some answer, it is impossible that they dont seat with one another. they have to, since they have no choice.

I know u r right, but I cant explain to myself case 2.

======
lets forget about the glue method. could u please show me the arrangement in a row method?

========

my question- can we use symmetry perm. only with the questions like "find arrangements if X is next to Y"?
the formula is 1/2*nPk (for example-if we need to arrange 6 guys and X guy is next to Y, then we can find it this way -1/2*6P2)

p.s. please dont laugh at me :) . even though I am ashamed, I just want to dig it deeply to find out the basis of my problems with comb and perm.
Last edited by LalaB on Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by pemdas » Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:09 pm
responding to your yesterday's post today, as I was sleep deprived and messed everything on the forum. I see you have already deleted your question asked :)

the idea is totally crazy, but I liked this craziness which should drive you either nuts or teach some good rule(s). I guess your mind is wrapped around a symmetry in permutations; its more complex variant is rotating symmetry - don't even touch that, as it's very complex and applied for geometric figures in movement with some indistinguishable positions (applied hugely in mechanics).

I am going to explain how symmetry works in linear arrangements, the similar to our situation, since we have linear arrangement. Three different elements are arranged straight without any restrictions put on them, A,B,C. These three elements, nevertheless will have the equal status in total arrangements, i.e. they have the equal odds to appear; each element does so. The total arrangements will be 3! and let us list them

A B C
A C B
B A C
B C A
C A B
C B A

Now please note, if we ask in how many arrangements element A will be in front of B, we should admit two elements having equal odds and accordingly answer 1/2 or 3!/2. The same if we ask, in how many ways element B will be to the left of A - here A is a point of symmetry and B will be on one side (to the left of A). Again it's 1/2 or 3!/2. Now let's complicate things and ask in how many ways element C will be in front of A and B, and we can obviously see the odds here are 1/3, as all three elements have equal possibility to be arranged relative to each other - important thing, we don't put any restriction here, hence the odds are equal - 1/3, accordingly 31/3. Are we doing everything correctly, let's check by reviewing the above listed arrangements >>>

OK, we seem to be correct till now. Let's move on and apply the symmetry method to our own linear arrangements. We have 6! ways of arranging the BTG experts. Out of this arrangements not all cases show two pairs sitting next to each other - we are putting restriction. Almost in every arrangement task, I would foremost deal with the restrictions and then turn to permutations. This will answer your question that if you are applying restrictions for this question precisely, you don't need to consider the symmetry in permutations at all, as this will not be required. If our question would contain additional modifications to the posted one as below
In how many ways the BTG experts - Ron of MGMAT, Anurag of Gurome, Stuart of Kaplan, Mike of Magoosh, Rich of Knewton, and Mitch of Princeton Review can be seated in a row such that Mike and Stuart are not seated next to each other as well as Annurag and Ron are not seated next to each other and Mitch is always seated in front of Rich, because I respect Mitch for flawless posts made on the BTG?
then you will go ahead and divide the resultant by 2 for symmetry between Rich and Mitch without any restriction put on the both in total arrangements, i.e. 624/2=312 ways.
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by LalaB » Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:59 pm
I've deleted, since I thought you considered my q. too idiotic and wouldnt even reply.feminine logic :) anyways, I ve posted it again.

again have a question :) sorry for annoying)

what do u mean by "equal odds"? U seem to mean, that any element has equal chances to be next to another element. if there are 3 elements, then 1/3 chance for every element.

but I thought it is 1/2, since one element is either to the right, or to the left of another element. I mean the key word here not the element, but its placement (right/left). but I seem to be wrong here(again hehe),since it didnt work with ur second example (in how many ways element C will be in front of A and B)?

dont laugh, but I have a wild idea to mix symmetry with the idea "neither=1-all" :). I mean if there is 1/2 chance that they are placed next to each other, why we cant think 1-seat next each other=dont seat next to each other? (this idea didnt work;I have checked it)

could u please re-read my post above? i have some more idiotic ideas there ))) try not to scare :) just want u to shed the light.
Last edited by LalaB on Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
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by LalaB » Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:13 am
Mitch is always seated in front of Rich, because I respect Mitch for flawless posts made on the BTG
Btw, as fas as I understood, M has equal chances to sit in front of Rich, behind of Rich, and next to Rich.so doesnt matter what is stated in a q., and M always has 1/2 chances.

right?
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by pemdas » Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:37 am
LalaB wrote:I mean if there is 1/2 chance that they are placed next to each other, why we cant think 1-seat next each other=dont seat next to each other? (this idea didnt work;I have checked it)
i made a very simple example for you to gauge the symmetry in linear arrangements. With 4 and more elements in linear arrangements the number of cases listed would increase and i was trying to avoid this. However, let me apprise you that if you have four or more elements like in our question posted (6 experts) it won't be difficult to see that every time one expert is ahead of another expert it can be in more than two ways, i.e. the other experts can stay in between in the numbers 1,2,3 and 4.

Also let's quit viewing elements in the ordered arrangements as probabilities. I make another example:

in 2-element set, what's the possibility for 2 elements to be arranged relative to each other, it's 2! or we can do this in 2 ways.

in in 3-element set, what's the possibility for 3 elements to be arranged relative to each other, it's 3! or we can do this in 3 ways.

-------

in 2-element set, what's the possibility for 1 element to be arranged to the left from the other, it's 2!/2 or we can do this in 1 way.

in 3-element set, what's the possibility for 1 element to be arranged to the left from the other 2 elements?

let us make 2 elements our new point of symmetry, then we don't have to look for the odds (probability) at all. Our set of 3 elements will become the set of 2 subsets with 2 elements and 1 element. Hence we take 2! and divide by 2 to obtain 1. Next we consider the variation number of 1-element subset within the set of 3 elements, 3P1=3, and finally multiply 1 by 3. In this sense you are correct, we divide always by 2 to define the symmetry as it's obvious for the nature of symmetry itself, yet don't forget that you should consider you symmetry point and fix it adequately. Within the 3-element set when we have 2 elements following the 1 element we make modifications. I was anticipating your question about probabilities and stuff, as I used a word *odds*. I shouldn't have done that. It was made for my reference not to the probabilities in general but to equal possibility for each element to be ordered in unrestricted arrangements. When you have restrictions, you need to work through sub-sets. It's tedious, but you seem wishing to do so :)
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If you run onto case with 5 elements and want to know in how many ways 2 fixed elements will always come in front of the other 3 elements, like A and B always come before C,D,E you need to work through the subsets of 2 elements and 3 elements within 5-element set -> as A and B are fixed we reduce our set to 4-element set, hence 4P1=4 ways (note please, we clued A and B again ;) ) multiplied by 2 gives the comfort for A-B and B-A, so 8 ways -this is wrong , don't multiply by 2, we need only relative positions We agreed to consider 5-element set as 2-element set, and we will review the subsets of 2 elements and 3 elements. As with 2-element set the symmetry will be around two units, here subsets. Our symmetry point will be 3-element subset. We divide our 2-unit set by 2 to obtain 1 and multiply this by 4 (remember 2*4P1) the variation number of 2-element subset within the set of 5 elements. As as result we get 2*4!/4 (not 5!/4 as we look into the ordered ways when A and B are together). We consider 2*4! again for the comfort of A-B and B-A ordering. Thus, it's 24*2/4=12 ways.
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If you like you can divide our experts into subsets too. This is going to be non-rewarding work though, as there is no need for symmetry. I didn't expect initially to seat Mitch in front of Rich. Also, I have put there two constrains for two pairs of experts to be seated next to each other.

I did simple symmetry modifications to my prompt later and solved this problem by dividing number of ways by 2; simply neither Mitch nor Rich have any constraints - their relative positions are in free symmetry.

------
the arrangements shown below are very easy to be set if we use precise constraints not symmetry. Note, we fix A-B and B-A first, then permute BCD such as 3!, the resultant will be 2*3!

You asked about symmetry in permutations, and I showed the way I see it's possible here
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by dhiren8182 » Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:39 am
The way i solved it!!!

Total no of ways to arrange 6 people =6!
Condition:
Mike and Stuart are not sitting together
Anurag and Ron are not sitting together .
Consider arranging Mitch and Rich in 2! ways+considering M & S as 1 group+considering A & S as 1 group .
Therefore total no of ways is 4!
M & S and A & R can be arranged in 2 ! ways each .
So the arrangement becomes 4*4!.
No of ways they are not sitting together=6!-4*4!=4!(6*5-4)
=26*24=624
Ans is D

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by pemdas » Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:58 am
@dhiren, that's correct and your solution matches with the previously responded by neerajkumar
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by Mike@Magoosh » Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:42 pm
pemdas ---

First of all, thank you. I am flattered to be cited in a problem. :)

I have a completely different solution ---- different from anyone else on this page, and different from any of the answer choices.

Take a look at this.

First of all, a point of formal logic. If we have the statement (not A and not B), the negative or complement of that statement is (A or B). Similarly, the complement of (A and B) would be (not A or not B), and the complement of (A or B) would be (not A and not B). The complement of an "and" statement is an "or" statement, and vice versa.

Here, we want to impose the condition (M & S not adjacent) and (A & R not adjacent).

It's easier to calculate the cases by subtraction, so we have to subtract the complement, which is:

not [(M & S not adjacent) and (A & R not adjacent)] = (M & S adjacent) or (A & R adjacent)

Of course, that "or" region is going to have an overlap that will have to be considered.

So, total number of permutations of six element is, of course, 6! = 720

Consider cases with M & S adjacent. There are ten configurations for M & S

M S _ _ _ _
S M _ _ _ _
_ M S _ _ _
_ S M _ _ _
_ _ M S _ _
_ _ S M _ _
_ _ _ M S _
_ _ _ S M _
_ _ _ _ M S
_ _ _ _ S M

The other four folks can be anywhere (4! = 24), so that's 24*10 = 240 with M & S adjacent, irrespective of A & R.

By symmetry, there would also be 240 with A & R adjacent, irrespective of M & S.

Now, calculate the overlap region, the cases where both M & S are adjacent and A & R are adjacent.

If M & S are in spaces #1 and #2

M S _ _ _ _ _ (M & S can be in either order ---> x2

then A & R can appear adjacent in #3 & #4, or #4 & #5, or #5 & 6 ----> x3

and A & R can appear in either order ----> x 2

and Rich & Mitch can be in either order in the remaining two spaces ---> x2

2x3x2x2 = 24 possibilities

If M & S are in spaces #2 and #3

_ M S _ _ _ _ (M & S can be in either order ---> x2

then A & R can appear adjacent in #4 & #5, or #5 & 6 ----> x2

and A & R can appear in either order ----> x 2

and Rich & Mitch can be in either order in the remaining two spaces ---> x2

2x2x2x2 = 16 possibilities

If M & S are in spaces #3 and #4

_ _ M S _ _ _ (M & S can be in either order ---> x2

then A & R can appear adjacent in #1 & #2, or #5 & 6 ----> x2

and A & R can appear in either order ----> x 2

and Rich & Mitch can be in either order in the remaining two spaces ---> x2

2x2x2x2 = 16 possibilities

If M & S are in spaces #4 and #5
==> symmetrical to when they're in spaces #2 & #3 ===> 16 possibilities

If M & S are in spaces #5 and #6
==> symmetrical to when they're in spaces #1 & #2 ===> 24 possibilities

Total overlap region = 24 + 16 +16 + 16 + 24 = 96

This overlap has been counted twice, as part of the 240 cases where M&S are adjacent, and also as part of the 240 cases where A&R are adjacent, so it needs to be subtracted.

Total cases where (M & S adjacent) or (A & R adjacent) = 240 + 240 - 96 = 384

Total cases where (M & S not adjacent) and (A & R not adjacent) = 720 - 384 = 336

That's my answer, and it's not one of the answer choices.

I believe I have correctly answered the question posed. Is the way I am interpreting the question not as pemdas intended it to be interpreted?

Are there any questions at all on what I've done?

Mike :)
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https://gmat.magoosh.com/

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by LalaB » Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:55 pm
pemdas, thanks for ur kind help :)
my thoughts are in a mess, need to re-read all ur posts above. gone to analyze :)

after reading Mike's post -
thnx God, that someone has a different view :) I thought only I misinterpreted the question hehe. that "either /or and "and" " view I was looking for :)
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