Past perfect tense

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by Jatinder » Sat Nov 01, 2008 10:14 am
Stacey Koprince wrote:I received a PM asking me to comment.

Yes, as some posters have said, past perfect is used when the two past events are separated in time. Generally speaking, the "past perfect" event has to occur in the past relative to a "simple past" event or point in time. The later-in-time item can be literally a point in time, such as a date, or it can be an event that is referred to via the simple past tense.

In the original two example sentences, we have a compound verb:

Jody went... and (Jody) bought...
or
Jody had gone and (Jody had) bought...

Notice that I repeated the "had" in the second sentence. With this structure, the implication is that both Jody and had are repeated before the second verb (bought)... so this one's not correct simply because it's using only past perfect, with no "later in time in the past" event or point in time as a reference point.

If we want to debate whether the "had" should be repeated... at the very least, it's ambiguous as to whether the intent is "Jody bought" or "Jody had bought" - and ambiguity makes for a bad sentence.

You could say:
Jody had already gone to the market when she bought the shoes. Meaning: sometime earlier (earlier the same day? The day before? I don't know), Jody went to the market. After that (but still in the past), she bought some shoes.

If you are trying to say that Jody bought the shoes at the market, then you'd more logically say something like:
Jody went to the market to buy shoes. (though this is ambiguous as to whether she did buy the shoes)
or
Jody bought shoes at the market.
The Bold part shown above uses the same subject John for the verb gone and bought, that's why we repeated (Jody had)

Following the same explanation, what's the reason of eliminating E for the question Q41 discussed here:
https://www.beatthegmat.com/3-q-s-t21877.html
(Here, we do have a different subject for the 2 verbs)

I am just pasting the question here:

In 1713, Alexander Pope began his translation of the Iliad, a work that, taking him seven years until completion, and that literary critic Samuel Johnson, Pope’s contemporary, pronounced the greatest translation in any language.

A. his translation of the Iliad, a work that, taking him seven years until completion, and that literary critic Samuel Johnson, Pope’s contemporary, pronounced
B. his translation of the Iliad, a work that took him seven years to complete and that literary critic Samuel Johnson, Pope’s contemporary, pronounced
C. his translation of the Iliad, a work that had taken seven years to complete and that literary critic Samuel Johnson, Pope’s contemporary, pronounced it as
D. translating the Iliad, a work that took seven years until completion and that literary critic Samuel Johnson, Pope’s contemporary, pronounced it as
E. translating the Iliad, a work that had taken seven years to complete and literary critic Samuel Johnson, Pope’s contemporary, pronounced it

Pls explain

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by Stacey Koprince » Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:19 pm
Please make sure to include the underline in the original sentence.

Here's our structure (commas below are in the same places as commas in the sentence)

opening time referent modifier, Pope (noun) began translating (verb) the Iliad (object), noun modifier, noun modifier, conjugated verb + object and other modifiers (basically, rest of sentence)

So Pope (a) began translating and (b) pronounced it (his own work) the greatest translation etc. Meanwhile, Johnson's in the middle of the sentence as part of the modifier "a work that had taken (seven years to complete and literary critic Samuel Johnson)."

So, Pope required Samuel Johnson plus seven years in order to complete the work? Alternatively, "a work that had taken literary critic SJ pronounced it the greatest..."? No - neither interpretation works.

Compare that to B (the right answer). We still start that modifier with "a work that" but now we also have another "that" right after the "and." The "and that" indicates that we're starting something new that should match with the words given before the first "that."

So:
A work that took him seven years to complete and (a work) that literary critic SJ, P's contemporary, pronounced the greatest...
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by Jatinder » Sun Nov 02, 2008 10:42 pm
Stacey Koprince wrote:Please make sure to include the underline in the original sentence.

Here's our structure (commas below are in the same places as commas in the sentence)

opening time referent modifier, Pope (noun) began translating (verb) the Iliad (object), noun modifier, noun modifier, conjugated verb + object and other modifiers (basically, rest of sentence)

So Pope (a) began translating and (b) pronounced it (his own work) the greatest translation etc. Meanwhile, Johnson's in the middle of the sentence as part of the modifier "a work that had taken (seven years to complete and literary critic Samuel Johnson)."

So, Pope required Samuel Johnson plus seven years in order to complete the work? Alternatively, "a work that had taken literary critic SJ pronounced it the greatest..."? No - neither interpretation works.

Compare that to B (the right answer). We still start that modifier with "a work that" but now we also have another "that" right after the "and." The "and that" indicates that we're starting something new that should match with the words given before the first "that."

So:
A work that took him seven years to complete and (a work) that literary critic SJ, P's contemporary, pronounced the greatest...
Thanks Stacey

Awesome explanation

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by mokura » Wed May 08, 2013 3:27 pm
I am still confused about the answer B. I do agree with the sentence, however, I do think there should be an "as" at the end of the sentence. To me "and that SJ pronounced the greatest translation" doesn't sound correct. Shouldn't it be "and that SJ pronounced as the greatest translation"?? anyone??