700+ Strange Question #2

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700+ Strange Question #2

by challenger63 » Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:26 am
I recently doubled my salary by taking a new job. I've been working at a company for two days and now realize that the company's workers are mean-spirited and egotistical. I have decided that high paying companies have unfriendly employees.

Which of the following, if, true, would weaken the above conclusion?

A. The work environment brings out the worst in people.
B. The company has 150,000 employees
C. Salary is more important than work environment
D. The benefits of the new job outweigh the unfriendly people
E. Egotistical workers can often outperform less self-confident employees

OA will be later
Source: — Critical Reasoning |

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by Tommy Wallach » Sun Jan 20, 2013 2:37 pm
Hey Challenger,

This is not a realistic question, and clearly not from any official source. GMAT questions are NEVER written in the first person (unless they say something like--> Cliff: I want to go to the store), and this is also way too informal. The answer choices do not weaken the argument at all.

Conclusion: High-paying jobs have unfriendly employees.
Premise: I doubled my salary taking this job; everyone here is mean-spirited and egotistical.

Likely assumption on a real GMAT question: Double the old salary is not necessarily high-paying.

A) This doesn't weaken. If anything, it strengthens. People are being awful at work.
B) The premise given is that "the company's workers are mean-spirted and egotistical." It didn't say "the people I've worked with."
C) Irrelevant.
D) Irrelevant.
E) Irrelevant.

Follow-up questions?

-t
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by David@VeritasPrep » Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:02 pm
I checked this one out and it appears to be from 800 score verbal. This is not the question that I would want to study.

As Tommy said there are certain hallmarks of a bad question and this has several of those. Just want to weigh in and second what Tommy said on this one!
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by challenger63 » Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:56 am
David@VeritasPrep wrote:I checked this one out and it appears to be from 800 score verbal. This is not the question that I would want to study.

As Tommy said there are certain hallmarks of a bad question and this has several of those. Just want to weigh in and second what Tommy said on this one!
OA - B

Personally, I think that the "right" answer is far away from the argument.

This is 800Score question which I faced yesterday.
))) I can't choose question during the CAT test...

Meanwhile, 800Score is recommended as a source for preparation by both Manhattan and VeritasPrep.
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by David@VeritasPrep » Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:15 am
Challenger -

Absolutely true! I am sorry if it seemed as if we were criticizing you, it is clearly not your fault that you were given this question. You even labeled it "strange question," so you did your part.

I have found that 800 Score math is much better than the verbal. I have actually told people to skip the verbal part on these tests or at least not take it seriously.

The weird thing about the 800 score verbal is that as students get better at the verbal section I have seen scores drop on this particular test! How is that for ironic? The better you get the more incompatible some of these questions are.
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by challenger63 » Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:42 am
David@VeritasPrep wrote:Challenger -

Absolutely true! I am sorry if it seemed as if we were criticizing you, it is clearly not your fault that you were given this question. You even labeled it "strange question," so you did your part.

I have found that 800 Score math is much better than the verbal. I have actually told people to skip the verbal part on these tests or at least not take it seriously.

The weird thing about the 800 score verbal is that as students get better at the verbal section I have seen scores drop on this particular test! How is that for ironic? The better you get the more incompatible some of these questions are.
In my opinion, the good thing about 800Score is that their tests allows student to focus on timing and general concepts.

The negative thing is that their scoring algorithm and some questions cast serious doubts.

1) Quant - scored only 38 (13 mistakes) while I got 48 and 47 in real exam.
2) Verbal - scored 40 and 42 (with 10+ mistakes) while I got 22 and 27 in real exam.

However, my verbal score is not representative because I was able to score 40-45 in Manhattan, Veritas, Kaplan and GMATPrep (less than <10 mistakes). By the way, nobody can give me adequate recommendation how to solve my problems, neither Veritas nor Manhattan.

The only weakness which I see is that I am not good in timing, especially in official conditions.
But how to improve timing I don't understand.
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by David@VeritasPrep » Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:05 am
You scored 40+ on Verbal on your various practice tests and then 22 and 27 on the real exam?

When you say "an adequate recommendation to solve your problems" you mean timing problems on the verbal section in the actual exam?

Do you have timing problems during your practice tests?

Briefly, how would you describe your timing problems on the official exam.

I, for one, am willing to try to help!
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by challenger63 » Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:33 am
David@VeritasPrep wrote:You scored 40+ on Verbal on your various practice tests and then 22 and 27 on the real exam?

When you say "an adequate recommendation to solve your problems" you mean timing problems on the verbal section in the actual exam?

Do you have timing problems during your practice tests?

Briefly, how would you describe your timing problems on the official exam.

I, for one, am willing to try to help!
Yes. I scored only 22. When I saw the results I didn't believe because I solved really difficult questions in both verbal and quant sections.

20.01.2013 800Score O660? Q38 V42
14.01.2013 VeritasPrep O690 Q49 V40 (Q49 V40 should give 720, just before tutoring with Trevor Hindson)
17.12.2012 MGMAT Q700 Q45 V40
16.12.2012 KAPLAN O710 Q48 V40

15.12.2012 G-DAY III O590 Q44 V27 IR7.0 AWA 4.5

09.12.2012 GMATPrepNEW O750 Q49 V45
01.12.2012 GMATPrepNEW O730 Q49 V41
04.11.2012 MGMAT O660 Q45 V35 - Just before private tutoring with Manhattan (Josh Braslow, really good tutor)

29.09.2012 G-DAY II O580 Q48 V22 IR7.0 AWA 4.5

22.09.2012 MGMAT O650 V36
11.09.2012 GMATprepNEW O670 Q49 V31
12.08.2012 GMATPrepNEW O680 Q47 V37

22.06.2012 G-Day I 0640 Q47 V31 IR2.0 AWA 4.0

03.06.2012 GMATPrepOLD O680 Q49 V34
29.01.2012 MGMAT O640 Q44 V33
....
far-far away started with something around O490 Q37 V16

----

I think I am versatile in terms of timing. I mean that in most exams in the past I was in time but in the last two practice exams and one official exam I faced run out time.

The best description of my problem is that when complexity grows exponentially I can't evenly do the test, especially in official conditions.

I have to train myself to feel when time is over so I must guess. But I am not sure that this guessing strategy is right way for somebody who wants to score 700+.
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by David@VeritasPrep » Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:06 am
Of course those scoring over 700 guess on questions!!

I took the GMAT for the third time about 16 months ago. I took it on my way to teach an LSAT class that was over 4 hours away. (I occasionally teach the LSAT but my focus is definitely GMAT).

I live in a pretty rural place so I drove over 3 hours to take the test and was sort of running late because a bridge was out and there was a big detour - this was after Hurricane Irene and the bridge that was out was on the Interstate in Massachusetts!

So I was sort of flustered and tired and just not really present. So on the Quant section I was feeling a bit sluggish. Questions I could easily get were not so easy and in fact, I had to guess at 8 questions on the Quant section! Eight questions! Most of these were questions I could normally have gotten right in practice, but I could not get them on that day. I was so sluggish that it took me over 2 minutes during the Quant section just to get my earplugs in!

So I followed the two rules 1) If you can get the question right, slow down focus and get it right and 2) if you do not have a good strategy within 1 min to 90 seconds then move on.

I ended up with a 770 that day.

Now to get an 800 I would have needed to be on my game and basically not guess at more than 1 or 2 questions. I have earned a perfect 51 on the verbal and I know what that feels like, but you can get in the 99% while missing several questions on both the Quant and the Verbal.

As for training yourself, here is an article that I wrote about a procedure for training yourself on how to know if you have a strategy and how long 1 minute is. I think it is a really helpful way to look at the Quant section but you will have to decide if you agree! It is called "Diagnose your way to GMAT Success" https://www.beatthegmat.com/mba/2012/04/ ... at-success

Use the exercises at the end of the article to 1) set your inner clock 2) know what it feels like to have a strategy within the appropriate time and 3) understand that the actual math should not be rushed.
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by Tommy Wallach » Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:14 pm
Hey Challenger,

As David has been saying, it definitely sounds like your issues are premised to some extent around test anxiety. This is a major issue for lots of students, and the warning signs are significant differences between practice tests and actual test day. For most, it manifests as an inability to actually apply technique when the time comes. In other words, because of stress, you end up forgetting to worry about the skills you've learned, and fall back on bad habits. Maybe this describes you, or maybe not, but what I can say with certainty is that if your process is strong and you don't run out of time, your score should never fluctuate. So either you're running out of time on lots of questions, or else your technique is falling by the wayside.

Definitely make sure you understand what 2 minutes feels like. Another way to practice that is to take a practice test and set 2 minutes per question (on quant...it doesn't work on verbal because the timing varies so much between an SC and a CR question). But even if you just do it on quant, the sense memory of 2 minutes should translate, and you'll know if you're going over.

If you'd like to give me your full name, I could look you up in our server and see if any other stuff pops out at me looking at your practice tests.

Good luck!

-t
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by challenger63 » Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:52 pm
Tommy Wallach wrote:Hey Challenger,

As David has been saying, it definitely sounds like your issues are premised to some extent around test anxiety. This is a major issue for lots of students, and the warning signs are significant differences between practice tests and actual test day. For most, it manifests as an inability to actually apply technique when the time comes. In other words, because of stress, you end up forgetting to worry about the skills you've learned, and fall back on bad habits. Maybe this describes you, or maybe not, but what I can say with certainty is that if your process is strong and you don't run out of time, your score should never fluctuate. So either you're running out of time on lots of questions, or else your technique is falling by the wayside.

Definitely make sure you understand what 2 minutes feels like. Another way to practice that is to take a practice test and set 2 minutes per question (on quant...it doesn't work on verbal because the timing varies so much between an SC and a CR question). But even if you just do it on quant, the sense memory of 2 minutes should translate, and you'll know if you're going over.

If you'd like to give me your full name, I could look you up in our server and see if any other stuff pops out at me looking at your practice tests.

Good luck!
-t
Tommy,

I think both issues are applicable to me.

Issue 1: Anxiety => Can't apply learned methods
Issue 2: Timing => Allowing anxiety overcomes common sense.

The first issue is more complex. There is real difference between non-native and native speakers. GMAT is discriminatory test for non-native speakers. Personally I think that most of non-native speakers who scored very well in Verbal has "sense of language". Unfortunately I don't have such kind of stuff as to solve the questions instinctively. Bearing in mind 2000+ English grammar rules in exam conditions is not easy. Moreover, there is a specific critique of GMAC in Russia. In Russia, GMAC-instructors during the exam give all instructions in Russian language. But listening instructions in Russian language when you are trying to switch your brain into English is absolutely terrible, especially before Verbal section.

Anyway, now, I think that "sense of language" is just a skill which is possible to develop.

Any ideas?

The second issue is easier but it is connected with the first. After I tough thousands of different rules, I got two negative results. First is the fact that in my tests complexity of tasks quickly goes to 700+. Although I could answer almost all question in quant and verbal, even the most difficult, I can't do in required time. For example, when I got Q48 in Official Exam, I wasted more than 8 min. on 8th question. After I realized what I had done, I started to solve questions very quick. Luckily, I overcame the lag but such quick methods are not applicable for Verbal. Perhaps, for non-native speaker, doing verbal section evenly is a must rule.

The second negative result is rules overlapping. When you know 3-6 methods for solving any quant problems, you have to not only solve the question right but also in the very beginning choose the most efficient method. For this point, it is important to understand bigger picture of WA, VIC or just Numbers. Luckily in most cases I succeed in this stuff. Perhaps I need only a recommendation how to mechanically practice timing in quant.

But when I face the same stuff in verbal, so I see a lot of different issues in SC or CR, I waste a lot of time sieving real mistakes from just poor style or diction in SC or might be answer from must be answer in CR. Of course I still do mistakes but my accuracy is quite high when I don't feel time pressure.

Any ideas?

..
Tommy, I will sent you my surname in a private message so you can find me in Manhattan system.
Actually I wanted to study with you when I was in New York, but, unfortunately, managers of Manhattan didn't allow me to do this. I am quite impressed by your and Ron approach for GMAT.
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by challenger63 » Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:05 pm
David@VeritasPrep wrote: As for training yourself, here is an article that I wrote about a procedure for training yourself on how to know if you have a strategy and how long 1 minute is. I think it is a really helpful way to look at the Quant section but you will have to decide if you agree! It is called "Diagnose your way to GMAT Success" https://www.beatthegmat.com/mba/2012/04/ ... at-success

Use the exercises at the end of the article to 1) set your inner clock 2) know what it feels like to have a strategy within the appropriate time and 3) understand that the actual math should not be rushed.
I found this article quite interesting and for sure I agree with the article. But the article does not cover some important issues such as my problems which are the result of over-study and lacking "sense of language" and solving one question in 1:30 is not the same to solve whole test in 75 min, there're some other additional issue.
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by Tommy Wallach » Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:10 pm
Hey Challenger,

Just FYI, I can't answer any questions in PM, so if you're interested in my looking at your tests, it'll have to be in public. : )

For your issues:

1: It isn't that the GMAT is discriminatory. It's that it's testing your grasp of the English language. In the opinion of GMAC, English is the international language of business, so you are expected to speak it with great skill and fluency. I agree that this isn't fair, but there are international schools that don't require the GMAT. If you want to go to school in an English language spot, you're expected to be strong on the language. As for the rules thing--there aren't all that many rules with the GMAT. I wonder what the heck they're all saying to you! Either way, if you have true fluency, the switching back and forth shouldn't be too hard. If you know the rules, they don't go away after a few minutes of hearing another language. Just keep working, and make sure you're READING as much as possible in English, and speaking as often as possible with native English speakers in English.

2: You're suffering under a common misconception about how to do the well on the GMAT. You're saying "Although I can answer them, I can't do in required time." That is an oxymoron. On the GMAT, you have 2 minutes. If you can't do it in 2 minutes, you can't really do it at all. Most people could nail every question given 8 minutes. What you need to realize is that, no matter how good you get, the test will keep adapting (up to a certain extent). Instead of trying to learn to conquer every question, learn to let go of a question that you aren't able to do in time. That's the mark of the true GMAT master; he can let go of questions that are too hard.

Just keep practicing, and make sure you are NEVER doing a question without time constraints. No verbal. No quant. Always with time constraints.

Hope that helps!

-t
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by challenger63 » Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:06 am
Tommy Wallach wrote:Hey Challenger,

Just FYI, I can't answer any questions in PM, so if you're interested in my looking at your tests, it'll have to be in public. : )
>> Not a problem. I am so disappointed by the results that I do not care. I wrote in PM because I just though that maybe it is useless to present personal informational such as surname.
Tommy Wallach wrote: For your issues:

1: It isn't that the GMAT is discriminatory. It's that it's testing your grasp of the English language. In the opinion of GMAC, English is the international language of business, so you are expected to speak it with great skill and fluency. I agree that this isn't fair, but there are international schools that don't require the GMAT. If you want to go to school in an English language spot, you're expected to be strong on the language. As for the rules thing--there aren't all that many rules with the GMAT. I wonder what the heck they're all saying to you! Either way, if you have true fluency, the switching back and forth shouldn't be too hard. If you know the rules, they don't go away after a few minutes of hearing another language. Just keep working, and make sure you're READING as much as possible in English, and speaking as often as possible with native English speakers in English.
>> GMAT discrimination is a topic for long discussion. Although I absolutely agree with your point that it is important to be proficient in English, I tend to disagree with other points and overall conclusion.

For sure, you know the following points but because you are native speaker, you might not feel the following idea.

In my view, GMAT does not test English proficiency. It tests "high order thinking" and understanding specific standard of English for business.

When I say "GMAT is discriminating", I mean overall picture.

First of all, Non-native speakers have to pass not only GMAT but TOEFL and IELTS. So, there is an overlapping in terms of the goals.

Secondly, the standard of English which GMAT tests in some cases is not truly international standard.
The tested standard is overloaded with "heavy rules" which at least international managers tend to avoid.

Personally, I like to master such English nuances as Subject-Verb Inversion, Ellipses or complex long heavy sentences. But in real life I consider those sentences vague. When I read a business article I want to understand the core business meaning rather than to interpreter the meaning from convoluted phrases.

Unfortunately, some academicians think that articles with overloaded heavy grammar seems to be more worthwhile. But they are not. Such grammarian weight just puts obstacles for a reader.

At the end, Business Schools have to teach students by using such inefficient articles, and GMAC has to test potential students with understanding such grammar.

I do not think that under pressure of exam conditions, it is easy for all people to switch between different languages, especially if one wants to score 700+. Logic of different languages is rather different. That is why all instructions in IELTS and some other international exams are only in English. if someone does not think in English during the test or tries to think in his or her language, he or she will fail.

Tommy Wallach wrote: 2: You're suffering under a common misconception about how to do the well on the GMAT. You're saying "Although I can answer them, I can't do in required time." That is an oxymoron. On the GMAT, you have 2 minutes. If you can't do it in 2 minutes, you can't really do it at all. Most people could nail every question given 8 minutes. What you need to realize is that, no matter how good you get, the test will keep adapting (up to a certain extent). Instead of trying to learn to conquer every question, learn to let go of a question that you aren't able to do in time. That's the mark of the true GMAT master; he can let go of questions that are too hard.

Just keep practicing, and make sure you are NEVER doing a question without time constraints. No verbal. No quant. Always with time constraints.

Hope that helps!

-t
>> ok, I will try. Thank you. I can do some question in less than 30 seconds, some questions requires 2-3 min. 8 min. is rather a unique example.
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by challenger63 » Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:26 am
Created independent topic for timing - https://www.beatthegmat.com/timing-advic ... tml#562285
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