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by Karen » Fri Nov 14, 2008 8:48 pm
For a lot of non-native speakers, the best strategy to improve scores on the SCs is to emphasize identifying rule violations that don't depend on having a good ear for the language. Non-native speakers can identify subject-verb agreement problems, problems with the use of pronouns, lack of parallelism in "not only... but also" constructions, etc. Non-natives can also memorize the more common idioms such as "consider X Y" -- and not be misled by having heard "consider X to be Y" 1,000 times when they were growing up.

Some non-natives can acquire a deeper intuition for what is right, but they have to work at it longer than native speakers, and some will never acquire that.

The bottom line is that for most non-natives, you have to try to work around the fact that they don't have an ear for what is right, but take this as an opportunity to build on the fact that they're also not misled by a lifetime of experience with saying things differently from what the GMAT is looking for. That is, to many non-natives, all 5 choices look equally good or equally bad. So at least they're not struggling with the "But this sounds perfectly fine! I say it this way every day!" reaction that many native speakers have. They can therefore approach it as much more of a mechanical problem and just apply rules without emotional resistance. The key is to spell the rules out clearly -- courses that take shortcuts and say "You know, like that old grammar rule you learned in high school" are disastrous for non-natives -- and get them to drill a lot on applying the rules quickly.

ETA: I also point out to non-natives the areas in which they can memorize and apply rules without resistance, and the fact that this is a slight advantage. I don't kid them -- we all know that being a native speaker is a huge advantage. But there are certain kinds of verbal questions on which non-natives are less likely to be misled by their ears, if they become good at applying the rules, and I point that fact out, so they know that being a non-native speaker isn't always bad news when it comes to the verbal section.
Karen van Hoek, PhD
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by logitech » Sun Nov 16, 2008 8:18 pm
Karen,

Thank you very much for the intel. Per my conversation with one of your colleagues, I learned that there are several different types of verbal test takers. I am not sure whether If I fall into one of those categories but I am a non-native speaker person with an engineering back ground. My analytical skills definitely help me to process the logic of CR questions and I can definitely convert a SC question into a mathematical formula, but sometimes a strange word or that 30 second extra time you need to read more than a native speaker can ruin your verbal score.

Could you please shed some lights on this issue and let us know what those different types of verbal test takers are ? And I also would like to learn your company's presence on West coast and whether if you have any published materials.

Best regards,
LGTCH
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by Bara » Mon Nov 17, 2008 8:47 pm
I'll jump in here for Karen, Logi (can I call you logi?), though she might want to elaborate..

First, the "30 second extra time you need to read more than a native speaker can ruin your verbal score." is simply not true. 30 seconds will not ruin your score...get into the gray - - its not a black and white scenario, here.

It's been our experience that verbal test takers do fall roughly into three categories - - and I know that Karen has answered a bit about this in a previous post re. native vs. non-native speakers.

Group 1.
Native Speakers (or non-native who might as well be native) who have had a humanities background and/or continue to read magazines/journals with high-quality writing (such as the New Yorker, Atlantic Monthly, Harpers, the Economist etc.). These folks can recognize written English vs. spoken English. The GMAT tests written English (with no particular school ie. Chicago Handbook of Style, MLA etc.) over spoken English - - and they claim, and Karen can elaborate, that they test standard agreeable conventions in English language. These students can often follow their gut because they know how things can appear, even though its might sometimes seem strange.

Group 2. Native Speakers who do NOT have humanities background and/or continue to read journals or magazines with high-quality writing. These students often struggle with thinking something 'sounds' right, but is considered wrong by the GMAT test writers. (remember GMAT answers are 'least wrong' not correct). These students often follow their gut, but need to pull back and become more scientific in their approach.

Group 3. Non-Native speakers. These students have the advantage of learning rules, and applying themselves analytically rather than following their gut. Non-native speakers often understand grammar rules better than some native speakers because they speak several languages (or even just two.)

Our materials WILL be published very shortly. It addresses test-takers in these categories, (as well as the different kinds of math-test-takers). Our material, as well as our tutoring, addresses the steps each type of student needs to take. (intellectually, emotionally, psychologically, etc.) in order to maximize their score, and minimize their stress. We do not have a one-size-fits-all approach. We currently only use our material with our clients, however, we can let you know when it is available commercially (I'll probably put a message in the forum).

We do have GMAT tutors on the West coast. Clients who don't live in places where we have tutors, either come to us to work over a weekend, a week or longer, or we go to them. Online and phone tutoring is also heavily utilized. All prospective clients fill out our pre-study intake, send us a diagnostic for analysis and evaluation, and have a consultation with me or another head coach. Then, as a team, we decide what the best course of action is, especially since many of our clients have not gotten the score they need through other programs or self-study.

Hope this was helpful.
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by Abdulla » Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:55 am
Great information mentioned above.. so let's start explain my case and it would be great guys if you give me some tips.

I'm going to take the test on Dec 29th and I really worked hard to increase my Quantitative score, as a result its jumped from 30th level to the 40th level and its still increasing, however my verbal score is still bellow 20 and just now I prepared a plan to study the SC first, because its easier to understand without any new vocabularies and then I will go through CR and RC.

For your information, I already took classes with MGMAT and they were useful, but I feel that my score will never increase without increasing the verbal part. Or in another way the increase in the verbal part will affect my score more than the Quant.

So, my question is what is the best way to increase my verbal score in that short period, keeping in mind that English is my second language.
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English as a Second Language - - and the GMAT

by Bara » Tue Nov 18, 2008 7:38 am
Because you know two languages, you're off to a good start because presumably you understand grammar well -- however, not knowing your specific case, or your struggles, I can't offer you much more directed advice. Yes, SC seems like a good place to start. No, you should actually continue keeping your math skills/practice going.

You can certainly study the commercially available material, and see how far you'll get. When you have questions post in forums like this to get some input, but since you do have a solid amount of time, you might want to seek the advice of a one-on-one tutor, especially since you've already taken a course.

Working with a tutor with a verbal specialty is most likely going to make the greatest difference for you, over the shortest amount of time. Make sure you find out the credentials of whoever you work with (even if its a tutoring company or big-name company). You don't want to waste time, and you want to learning the RIGHT way to answer questions and move through the test, with someone who will customize lessons to your needs.

To use our company as a benchmark/comparison, we only hire GMAT Verbal tutors who know the GMAT intimately, score high on the test, and are experienced educators. Our tutors rock because they are able to explain clearly the tricks and strategies of the GMAT, while fully able to articulate the intricacies of the English language , not simply because they were 'trained to teach the GMAT.' They are grammarians, cognitive linguists, and other professionals who are fully immersed in 'English' and imparting the rules of GMAT English and verbal oddities, as well as helping our clients succeed, is their passion (for some, nearing obsession...but in a good way).

We look forward to helping you out here in the forum!
Bara Sapir, MA, CHt, CNLP
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by akondakar » Wed May 19, 2010 6:19 am
As a non-native speaker, I am really concerned about the verbal section. So I read this thread with a lot of attention, and I am going to try to apply these advices.
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by frank1 » Wed May 19, 2010 6:46 pm
I think one thing is for sure, words only are never going to solve this issue. May be ,can work as sympathy but can never solve the real problem.
Ok, i guess this native and non native argument is never going to end. So, here are some thing i want to say
1)Everybody seems to accept that 'native speakers do have huge advantage over non native speakers in verbal section'. So, what has been done till date to reduce it. Can we come to conclusion that GMAT is biased towards non native speakers or GMAT test is not 100% fair.
Should anybody have a better score just because he knows some more words than other who knows the language less.
2)Is it Aptitude Test or language test?
Most of users take GMAT as a requirement for attending Business school not to be a LANGAUGE Instructor. So, when i prepare to SC and RC ,I ask myself, "am I trying to be language instructor?" or "am I trying to be language or meaning analyst?".So for me if you say GMAT is Aptitude test then inclusion of SC and style of passages in RC is not justifiable at all. I agree with the CR questions for business student candidates.
If it really works as language test, why are international students required to take TOEFL in addition to taking GMAT.

3)If Compare verbal section's scores with the quantative section's score for native speakers or take an average I bet you will find most of them have better verbal sections scores and especially in SC and RC where as I have seen non native speaker student getting 100% marks in quantative section and even not getting 40% marks in verbal section ruining the whole GMAT score.
What does it tell about his caliber?
4)In most of non-native countries GMAT type English is not taught and it doesn't happen in a day or two.
When I use to be in school ,for e g, I use to say
Harry works better than Larry.
Harry can do different link like singing, playing
These sentence were right(this is how things are taught) when I was in school but for this exam these are not correct. So, all of the sudden somebody says this is not right then things are bound to get difficult for you.
I also feel discussion like this doesn't have or will not get to any logical end so I also know joining the band wagon seems to be best ploy for now rather than arguing over it.
Just my thoughts.
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by nikhilkatira » Thu May 20, 2010 10:36 am
frank1 wrote:I think one thing is for sure, words only are never going to solve this issue. May be ,can work as sympathy but can never solve the real problem.
Ok, i guess this native and non native argument is never going to end. So, here are some thing i want to say
1)Everybody seems to accept that 'native speakers do have huge advantage over non native speakers in verbal section'. So, what has been done till date to reduce it. Can we come to conclusion that GMAT is biased towards non native speakers or GMAT test is not 100% fair.
Should anybody have a better score just because he knows some more words than other who knows the language less.
2)Is it Aptitude Test or language test?
Most of users take GMAT as a requirement for attending Business school not to be a LANGAUGE Instructor. So, when i prepare to SC and RC ,I ask myself, "am I trying to be language instructor?" or "am I trying to be language or meaning analyst?".So for me if you say GMAT is Aptitude test then inclusion of SC and style of passages in RC is not justifiable at all. I agree with the CR questions for business student candidates.
If it really works as language test, why are international students required to take TOEFL in addition to taking GMAT.

3)If Compare verbal section's scores with the quantative section's score for native speakers or take an average I bet you will find most of them have better verbal sections scores and especially in SC and RC where as I have seen non native speaker student getting 100% marks in quantative section and even not getting 40% marks in verbal section ruining the whole GMAT score.
What does it tell about his caliber?
4)In most of non-native countries GMAT type English is not taught and it doesn't happen in a day or two.
When I use to be in school ,for e g, I use to say
Harry works better than Larry.
Harry can do different link like singing, playing
These sentence were right(this is how things are taught) when I was in school but for this exam these are not correct. So, all of the sudden somebody says this is not right then things are bound to get difficult for you.
I also feel discussion like this doesn't have or will not get to any logical end so I also know joining the band wagon seems to be best ploy for now rather than arguing over it.
Just my thoughts.
I completely agree with you my friend... :)
Best,
Nikhil H. Katira
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by Brian@VeritasPrep » Thu May 20, 2010 12:58 pm
Hey, Frank and Nikhil,

I love (and empathize with) what you wrote...and urge you to consider that:

-Business schools outside of the United States use the GMAT as a primary factor in their admissions decisions
-More GMAT exams were taken outside of the U.S. in 2009 than within the U.S.
-Even within the U.S., a significant percentage of the top applicants are non-native English speakers, and top American schools aggressively target students from underrepresented areas of the world

GMAC was founded by and is overseen by admissions officers at top programs; its job is to put together a test that assesses the skills that business schools want their students to have. So...when you ask "am I applying to be a business leader or an English teacher", you're asking the right question. The verbal section of the GMAT is much more a problem solving test than it is a language test!!!!

Keep that in mind as you study. It doesn't make sense for, say, INSEAD to favor an average American student over an excellent Argentinian student, only because of an English bias. It also doesn't make sense for schools to favor a student who is great at memorizing trivial idiomatic errors and mathematical formulas - you can always look those things up on your smartphone nowadays. What they do want is a candidate who can think efficiently, solve problems effectively, etc. There are certain things you "need to know" on this test, but far and away they're testing how you think. I've written a lot on BTG about that - one such article is linked here: https://www.beatthegmat.com/mba/2010/02/ ... e-an-idiom - and would advise you to embrace as much of that style of thinking as you can.

Whether they were simply out of frustration or not, your thoughts are on the right track, and business schools think similarly!
Brian Galvin
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by frank1 » Thu May 20, 2010 7:26 pm
Well thanks very much for replying.It is always good to read from experts.

any way i want to make clear that
I am not fraustrated or any thing like that.I am trying to be a business student,so rule no 1 i have learned, 'never get fraustrated.Cope with the situation,if you cannot change it'....so is the case here.So,it is not fraustration.May be just i am presenting my side of argument(may not be facts) claiming everything doesnt seems to be right with it.

But having said that,i know i will be giving same GMAT abiding by all the rules and how it is.

With all respect i am writing these and as i say these are my part of logic only.
Brian@VeritasPrep wrote:Hey, Frank and Nikhil,

I love (and empathize with) what you wrote...and urge you to consider that:

-Business schools outside of the United States use the GMAT as a primary factor in their admissions decisions
Well,i think it will be fallacy to conclude that 'others also use GMAT so gmat is good'.I think there are lots of other things as well in this case such as
economical reasons(you want to be with the strongest.....reputated one)
there may not be other good or better choice than that....
physiological reasons(institution in many countries feel repuated when they are some how affiliated with exam like GMAT....and use as an advertisment tool)
and many others...


Brian@VeritasPrep wrote: -More GMAT exams were taken outside of the U.S. in 2009 than within the U.S.
May be intl students donot have choice.Most take GMAT in hope of getting scholarship.So a medicore US student does have choice going to medicore business school which even may not need GMAT but even top intl student will have to take GMAT even just to get scholarship.
Even in my case my undergrad CGPA was 3.9+ (that is top 1%,infact that time i was only one to get it in my university),but when i contact admission official of business school in usa, even a medicore one ,they say 'no gmat we cannot talk about scholarship' or 'take gmat score 6xx+ then only scholarship........lol
Brian@VeritasPrep wrote: -Even within the U.S., a significant percentage of the top applicants are non-native English speakers, and top American schools aggressively target students from underrepresented areas of the world
i may be wrong but non-native speakers are found to be better at quantative(dont know the reason,one cause may be in this section nobody has advantage,this proves the point as well)
but in verbal section,i think one should not forget effort non-native speakers put in comparision to native speakers.I have heard lots of native speakers say 'well i didnt prepared for SC and RC .....' where as for non-native speaker they have to prepare for it at least month or two....even to get idioms....
Brian@VeritasPrep wrote: GMAC was founded by and is overseen by admissions officers at top programs; its job is to put together a test that assesses the skills that business schools want their students to have. So...when you ask "am I applying to be a business leader or an English teacher", you're asking the right question. The verbal section of the GMAT is much more a problem solving test than it is a language test!!!!
what i am trying to say is,if question type can be changed that suits more for a business student,it would be better.I dont know if i am going to use formula of circle,pyramid,calculate complex train problem in my real business.(it wont be one man company ....and knowing it and mastering it are two different things)

same with verbal (sc or rc),i wonder i will think 'ok i need to make sentence parallel when i talk with my clients' or 'was the modifier used at correct place when i talked with those partners?' lol....
One should not forget it is not just test of language...

rather than that if i were to suggest,i would say introduce some elementary accounting tropic(which will be beneficial for business student) instead of sc or SC should be limited to testing language skill.

RC should feature more passage on business rather than science and astronomy.
Lots of things can be done to mitigate the claim that non native speakers have advantage even with out changing major modules.
Brian@VeritasPrep wrote: Keep that in mind as you study. It doesn't make sense for, say, INSEAD to favor an average American student over an excellent Argentinian student, only because of an English bias. It also doesn't make sense for schools to favor a student who is great at memorizing trivial idiomatic errors and mathematical formulas - you can always look those things up on your smartphone nowadays. What they do want is a candidate who can think efficiently, solve problems effectively, etc. There are certain things you "need to know" on this test, but far and away they're testing how you think. I've written a lot on BTG about that - one such article is linked here: https://www.beatthegmat.com/mba/2010/02/ ... e-an-idiom - and would advise you to embrace as much of that style of thinking as you can.

Whether they were simply out of frustration or not, your thoughts are on the right track, and business schools think similarly!
thanks for advice.


Having said all, i know GMAT is very reputed ,international,managed exam which is very good so i think introduction of these things can make exam better and evenly balanced for every one either native or non native speakers.

just my thoughts

thanks
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