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OG SC question

by ankit0703 » Sun Oct 14, 2012 12:40 am
After several years of rapid growth, the health care company became one of the largest health care providers in the metropolitan area, while it then proved unable to handle the increase in business, falling months behind in its payment to doctors and hospitals.
A. while it then proved unable to handle the increase in business, falling months
behind in its payment to
B. while it then proved unable to handle the increase in business and fell months
behind in its payment to
C. but then it proved unable to handle the increase in business, falling months behind
in its paying
D. but then proving unable to handle the increase in business, falling months behind
in paying
E. but then proved unable to handle the increase in business, falling months behind
in paying

OA: E

This question has been discussed numerous times on different forums but I am still not able to understand the usage of "but" in the answer. "But" used to connect 2 independent clauses but in E, "but" is followed by a fragment. Could anyone throw some light on the usage if "but" here.

Thanks.
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by tanviet » Sun Oct 14, 2012 1:08 am
Why C is wrong?

this problem is hard and not presented in og books.

we use "doing" to say that the agent somewhere in the sentence does the action of "doing" and so we do not need possessive "its" . this case is shown in E choice.

if we refer to general action which is done by no agent in the sentence, we use a noun such as "payment" . we can use possesive to make a noun specific such as "it payment"

that is why we can have "its payment" but can not have "its paying"

I am not sure of this. No full explanation is presented on this poit. I do searching already. experts, pls help.

I think this point is purely grammartical and is met on 700 level quetions. gmat SC now tests meaning as focus.

pls, comment.
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by GMATGuruNY » Sun Oct 14, 2012 4:09 am
ankit0703 wrote:After several years of rapid growth, the health care company became one of the largest health care providers in the metropolitan area, while it then proved unable to handle the increase in business, falling months behind in its payment to doctors and hospitals.
A. while it then proved unable to handle the increase in business, falling months
behind in its payment to
B. while it then proved unable to handle the increase in business and fell months
behind in its payment to
C. but then it proved unable to handle the increase in business, falling months behind
in its paying
D. but then proving unable to handle the increase in business, falling months behind
in paying
E. but then proved unable to handle the increase in business, falling months behind
in paying

OA: E

This question has been discussed numerous times on different forums but I am still not able to understand the usage of "but" in the answer. "But" used to connect 2 independent clauses but in E, "but" is followed by a fragment. Could anyone throw some light on the usage if "but" here.

Thanks.
In A and B, while it then is a contradiction in terms.
While -- even when it serves to indicate contrast -- implies AT THE SAME TIME.
Then means LATER.
Eliminate A and B.

In C, its paying doctors is incorrect.
POSSESSIVE + GERUND + DIRECT OBJECT is not a viable construction on the GMAT.
Eliminate C.

In D, proving is not parallel with became.
A conjunction such as but must connect PARALLEL FORMS.
Eliminate D.

The correct answer is E.

The GMAT does NOT subscribe to the contention that COMMA + FANBOYS must be followed by an independent clause.
Hence, the comma that precedes but in the OA is NOT AN ERROR.
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by tanviet » Sun Oct 14, 2012 5:54 pm
GMATGuruNY wrote:
ankit0703 wrote:After several years of rapid growth, the health care company became one of the largest health care providers in the metropolitan area, while it then proved unable to handle the increase in business, falling months behind in its payment to doctors and hospitals.
A. while it then proved unable to handle the increase in business, falling months
behind in its payment to
B. while it then proved unable to handle the increase in business and fell months
behind in its payment to
C. but then it proved unable to handle the increase in business, falling months behind
in its paying
D. but then proving unable to handle the increase in business, falling months behind
in paying
E. but then proved unable to handle the increase in business, falling months behind
in paying

OA: E

This question has been discussed numerous times on different forums but I am still not able to understand the usage of "but" in the answer. "But" used to connect 2 independent clauses but in E, "but" is followed by a fragment. Could anyone throw some light on the usage if "but" here.

Thanks.
In A and B, while it then is a contradiction in terms.
While -- even when it serves to indicate contrast -- implies AT THE SAME TIME.
Then means LATER.
Eliminate A and B.

In C, its paying doctors is incorrect.
POSSESSIVE + GERUND + DIRECT OBJECT is not a viable construction on the GMAT.
Eliminate C.

In D, proving is not parallel with became.
A conjunction such as but must connect PARALLEL FORMS.
Eliminate D.

The correct answer is E.

The GMAT does NOT subscribe to the contention that COMMA + FANBOYS must be followed by an independent clause.
Hence, the comma that precedes but in the OA is NOT AN ERROR.
Thank you for the posting

can you explain why POSSESIVE+DOING+DIRECT OBJECT is not viable on gmat? is there any reason for this point or this point is hard and fast rule and we just remember ?
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by EducationAisle » Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:51 am
duongthang wrote: can you explain why POSSESIVE+DOING+DIRECT OBJECT is not viable on gmat? is there any reason for this point or this point is hard and fast rule and we just remember ?
Yeah, OG acknowledges it as an awkward construction.

#24 OG12:
In virtually all types of tissue in every animal species, dioxin induces the production of enzymes that are the organism's trying to metabolize, or render harmless, the chemical that is irritating it.

OE: Th e -ing form of a verb can be used as a noun (e.g., running is her favorite sport), but it is often awkward, particularly when used with a possessive, as in this case.
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by ankit0703 » Mon Oct 15, 2012 8:14 am
GMATGuruNY wrote:The GMAT does NOT subscribe to the contention that COMMA + FANBOYS must be followed by an independent clause.
Hence, the comma that precedes but in the OA is NOT AN ERROR.

In the OG question

The Scandinavian assault on Western Europe culminated in the early eleventh century with the Danish conquest of the English kingdom, which other Scandinavian kings attempted to repeat, unsuccessfully later in the same century.

Option C. an achievement that other Scandinavian kings attempted later in the century to repeat, but were not successful at it

For the above option what OG gave the explanation is "The co-ordinating conjunction but introduces a clause that requires subject and a verb;this version provides the verb but omits the subject".

So according to that I think that OG test the concept of FANBOYS. And if that is true how the usage of BUT is correct for the question in my first post on this thread.

Thanks in Advance.
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by tanviet » Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:44 am
ankit0703 wrote:
GMATGuruNY wrote:The GMAT does NOT subscribe to the contention that COMMA + FANBOYS must be followed by an independent clause.
Hence, the comma that precedes but in the OA is NOT AN ERROR.

In the OG question

The Scandinavian assault on Western Europe culminated in the early eleventh century with the Danish conquest of the English kingdom, which other Scandinavian kings attempted to repeat, unsuccessfully later in the same century.

Option C. an achievement that other Scandinavian kings attempted later in the century to repeat, but were not successful at it

For the above option what OG gave the explanation is "The co-ordinating conjunction but introduces a clause that requires subject and a verb;this version provides the verb but omits the subject".

So according to that I think that OG test the concept of FANBOYS. And if that is true how the usage of BUT is correct for the question in my first post on this thread.

Thanks in Advance.
VERY interesting.

og questions are good but the og explanation are not good.

I understand that COMMA+FANBOY +INDEPENDENT CLAUSE is correct. we need COMMA+FANBOY before independent clause.

but FANBOYE can be used without an independent clause or comma.

I like gmat but english

is correct. here we do not need comma or independent clause.

pls, comment. very intestering explanation in og book.
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by GMATGuruNY » Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:57 am
ankit0703 wrote:
GMATGuruNY wrote:The GMAT does NOT subscribe to the contention that COMMA + FANBOYS must be followed by an independent clause.
Hence, the comma that precedes but in the OA is NOT AN ERROR.

In the OG question

Incorrect: The Scandinavian assault on Western Europe culminated in the early eleventh century with the Danish conquest of the English kingdom, an achievement that other Scandinavian kings attempted later in the century to repeat, but were not successful at it.

For the above option what OG gave the explanation is "The co-ordinating conjunction but introduces a clause that requires subject and a verb;this version provides the verb but omits the subject".
Note that the OG explanation makes no mention of the comma preceding but.
The omission of a subject after but implies the following:
...an achievement THAT other Scandinavian kings attempted later in the century to repeat but [an achievement THAT other Scandinavian kings] were not successful at IT.
The bracketed words are omitted, but their presence is implied.

In the red portion, both that and it serve to refer to an achievement.
The second pronoun (it) is not needed.
Wrong: the wall that John painted IT
Correct: the wall that John painted

Also, since it is standing in for an achievement, the following nonsensical meaning is implied:
Other Scandanavian kings were not successful at this achievement.
It is not possible to be UNSUCCESSFUL at an ACHIEVEMENT.

Thus, the omission of a subject after but creates both a pronoun error and a meaning error.
Punctuation is NOT the issue here.
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by ankit0703 » Sun Oct 21, 2012 12:54 am
GMATGuruNY wrote:
ankit0703 wrote:
GMATGuruNY wrote:The GMAT does NOT subscribe to the contention that COMMA + FANBOYS must be followed by an independent clause.
Hence, the comma that precedes but in the OA is NOT AN ERROR.

In the OG question

Incorrect: The Scandinavian assault on Western Europe culminated in the early eleventh century with the Danish conquest of the English kingdom, an achievement that other Scandinavian kings attempted later in the century to repeat, but were not successful at it.

For the above option what OG gave the explanation is "The co-ordinating conjunction but introduces a clause that requires subject and a verb;this version provides the verb but omits the subject".
Note that the OG explanation makes no mention of the comma preceding but.
The omission of a subject after but implies the following:
...an achievement THAT other Scandinavian kings attempted later in the century to repeat but [an achievement THAT other Scandinavian kings] were not successful at IT.
The bracketed words are omitted, but their presence is implied.

In the red portion, both that and it serve to refer to an achievement.
The second pronoun (it) is not needed.
Wrong: the wall that John painted IT
Correct: the wall that John painted

Also, since it is standing in for an achievement, the following nonsensical meaning is implied:
Other Scandanavian kings were not successful at this achievement.
It is not possible to be UNSUCCESSFUL at an ACHIEVEMENT.

Thus, the omission of a subject after but creates both a pronoun error and a meaning error.
Punctuation is NOT the issue here.
Thanks for the reply Sir. So as far as I understood, FANBOYS concept is not directly tested in the GMAT unless it is leading to some other error. Am I right ?
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by lunarpower » Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:22 am
ankit0703 wrote:
GMATGuruNY wrote:The GMAT does NOT subscribe to the contention that COMMA + FANBOYS must be followed by an independent clause.
Hence, the comma that precedes but in the OA is NOT AN ERROR.

In the OG question

The Scandinavian assault on Western Europe culminated in the early eleventh century with the Danish conquest of the English kingdom, which other Scandinavian kings attempted to repeat, unsuccessfully later in the same century.

Option C. an achievement that other Scandinavian kings attempted later in the century to repeat, but were not successful at it

For the above option what OG gave the explanation is "The co-ordinating conjunction but introduces a clause that requires subject and a verb;this version provides the verb but omits the subject".

So according to that I think that OG test the concept of FANBOYS. And if that is true how the usage of BUT is correct for the question in my first post on this thread.

Thanks in Advance.
about 10% of the OG explanations are out to lunch; this may be one of them. (it's easy to tell that GMAC has its best people writing the questions and its second-tier people writing the explanations. while not ideal, this situation is clearly better than the reverse would be!)

the biggest issue here is the "it" at the end. i don't know how to explain this with grammatical terminology (which would be unnecessary and distracting anyway), but here are some examples.

basically, the idea is this: if a modifier describes some noun, then it can't contain an "it" referring to the same noun.

This is the book that I read yesterday.
--> correct
This is the book that I read it yesterday.
--> incorrect

this choice has that same problem, but as the second half of a parallel structure.

in retrospect, once you've learned to see this problem, it's probably fairly easy to see. however, they can camouflage this construction pretty well in the context of a decently long sentence. e.g., check out choice (b) on this GMATPrep problem:
https://www.manhattangmat.com/forums/gmatprep-t6880.html
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by vikram4689 » Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:40 am
Mitch, Ron -

Isn't above Rule "possessive + gerund + direct object" is contradicted by mgmat flash cards (pg-96). Aren't "the conference" and "clearance" direct objects for "attending" and "receiving" resp.

Correct(as per flashcards): Our attending the conference is dependent on our pilot's receiving clearance to take off.

My version (i included prep 'of' to break unwanted structure): Our attending of the conference is dependent on our pilot's receiving of clearance to take off.
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by lunarpower » Sat Nov 24, 2012 11:19 am
vikram4689 wrote:Mitch, Ron -

Isn't above Rule "possessive + gerund + direct object" is contradicted by mgmat flash cards (pg-96). Aren't "the conference" and "clearance" direct objects for "attending" and "receiving" resp.
although you have addressed this post to me (among others), i have no idea what post/rule you are trying to cite.

unless you are referring to the post directly above yours, always quote the post that you are talking about, please.
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