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Relative noun: that and which

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Relative noun: that and which

by sg7007 » Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:57 am
Hi,

I got this problem from the Powerscore SC bible. (Q.4 from p.121) I had no problem getting the correct answer, but there's something I don't get that's in the answer key. The answer key says, the relative pronoun, 'that' could be used if the proposition, 'with' was removed. Then, would it look like this?

'that the bank that I have had a savings account with for over twenty years' -> would this be a correct expression?

Plus, can you say that the relative pronoun 'that' never has a proposition or a comma in front of it? (as in 'with that,' or ', that')

Thanks in advance!

Here's the original sentence from the problem.
---
It was extremely discouraging to learn that the bank, with whom I have had a savings account for over twenty years, could not open a checking account for me because I did not have proper identification.

Correct: (B) that the bank, with which I have had a savings account for over twenty years.
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Re: Relative noun: that and which

by goelmohit2002 » Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:15 am
sg7007 wrote:Hi,

I got this problem from the Powerscore SC bible. (Q.4 from p.121) I had no problem getting the correct answer, but there's something I don't get that's in the answer key. The answer key says, the relative pronoun, 'that' could be used if the proposition, 'with' was removed. Then, would it look like this?

'that the bank that I have had a savings account with for over twenty years' -> would this be a correct expression?

Plus, can you say that the relative pronoun 'that' never has a proposition or a comma in front of it? (as in 'with that,' or ', that')

Thanks in advance!

Here's the original sentence from the problem.
---
It was extremely discouraging to learn that the bank, with whom I have had a savings account for over twenty years, could not open a checking account for me because I did not have proper identification.

Correct: (B) that the bank, with which I have had a savings account for over twenty years.
hi sg0007,

Please refer to this link of DD....will help you to clear your which Vs that dielamma:

https://gmattoughies.blocked/2009/0 ... lause.html

In summary
comma before that = always wrong in GMAT.
that is a restrictive relative pronoun = so it is incorrect to use that here. Since you are talking about only one bank with which you held account for last 20 years.
which = non restrictive pronoun, just tells more about the noun....

The link above talks about the same in detail.
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Re: Relative noun: that and which

by sg7007 » Thu Jul 09, 2009 7:42 pm
goelmohit2002 wrote: that is a restrictive relative pronoun = so it is incorrect to use that here. Since you are talking about only one bank with which you held account for last 20 years.
Thanks a lot, goelmohit.

Now, I think I understand the difference b/w 'that' and 'which.' But then, in this problem, wouldn't it be possible to use 'that'? Like you said, the author's talking about only one bank that he's held an account for 20 years. Since the author mentions the specific one bank, I guess the restrictive relative pronoun, 'that' could be used to refer to that specific bank. Am I making any sense?
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Re: Relative noun: that and which

by goelmohit2002 » Thu Jul 09, 2009 8:39 pm
sg7007 wrote:
goelmohit2002 wrote: that is a restrictive relative pronoun = so it is incorrect to use that here. Since you are talking about only one bank with which you held account for last 20 years.
Thanks a lot, goelmohit.

Now, I think I understand the difference b/w 'that' and 'which.' But then, in this problem, wouldn't it be possible to use 'that'? Like you said, the author's talking about only one bank that he's held an account for 20 years. Since the author mentions the specific one bank, I guess the restrictive relative pronoun, 'that' could be used to refer to that specific bank. Am I making any sense?
No. As per my understanding you cannot use the same....remember that is a restrictive pronoun....

Remember this way:

when talking about 1 out of n members out of a set of similar things use "that"...( we are restricting = restrictive)

when talking about 1 out of 1 member of a set use which(we are not restricting = non restrictive)
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Thanks!

by sg7007 » Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:47 pm
goelmohit2002,

now it totally makes sense. Thank a ton!
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Re: Relative noun: that and which

by sg7007 » Sat Jul 11, 2009 1:14 am
goelmohit2002 wrote:
No. As per my understanding you cannot use the same....remember that is a restrictive pronoun....

Remember this way:

when talking about 1 out of n members out of a set of similar things use "that"...( we are restricting = restrictive)

when talking about 1 out of 1 member of a set use which(we are not restricting = non restrictive)
I thought I understood your explanation, but actually, I don't. So, you said when talking about 1 out of n members, 'that' is used. In this sentence, the term, 'the bank" could indicate any random bank. Then I guess you can restrict the scope of it by using the restrictive relative pronoun, 'that'

Here's the sentence at issue...

It was extremely discouraging to learn that the bank that I have had a savings account with for over twenty years could not open a checking account for me because I did not have proper identification.

In this sentence, I guess 'the bank' could indicate any bank in which the author cannot open a checking account due to lack of his ID. I mean, there could be n number of banks out there, in which he can't open an account, so you could restrict it by using 'that' (1 out of n members)

Consider this sentence.
A: The law that forbids the illegal drug was enacted last year.
B: The law, which forbids the illegal drug, was enacted last year.

The sentence, A might be more proper because the law is very ambiguous otherwise. Given this example, why can't you use 'that' in the "bank" one?
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Re: Relative noun: that and which

by madhur_ahuja » Sat Jul 11, 2009 2:23 am
sg7007 wrote:
goelmohit2002 wrote:
No. As per my understanding you cannot use the same....remember that is a restrictive pronoun....

Remember this way:

when talking about 1 out of n members out of a set of similar things use "that"...( we are restricting = restrictive)

when talking about 1 out of 1 member of a set use which(we are not restricting = non restrictive)
I thought I understood your explanation, but actually, I don't. So, you said when talking about 1 out of n members, 'that' is used. In this sentence, the term, 'the bank" could indicate any random bank. Then I guess you can restrict the scope of it by using the restrictive relative pronoun, 'that'

Here's the sentence at issue...

It was extremely discouraging to learn that the bank that I have had a savings account with for over twenty years could not open a checking account for me because I did not have proper identification.

In this sentence, I guess 'the bank' could indicate any bank in which the author cannot open a checking account due to lack of his ID. I mean, there could be n number of banks out there, in which he can't open an account, so you could restrict it by using 'that' (1 out of n members)

Consider this sentence.
A: The law that forbids the illegal drug was enacted last year.
B: The law, which forbids the illegal drug, was enacted last year.

The sentence, A might be more proper because the law is very ambiguous otherwise. Given this example, why can't you use 'that' in the "bank" one?
In the bank example, it cannot be any bank. Since there could be only one back with which the author had a savings account for 20 years.

And hence, you require non-restrictive , which. Is my reasoning correct ?
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Re: Relative noun: that and which

by goelmohit2002 » Sat Jul 11, 2009 3:01 am
sg7007 wrote: I thought I understood your explanation, but actually, I don't. So, you said when talking about 1 out of n members, 'that' is used. In this sentence, the term, 'the bank" could indicate any random bank. Then I guess you can restrict the scope of it by using the restrictive relative pronoun, 'that'

Here's the sentence at issue...

It was extremely discouraging to learn that the bank that I have had a savings account with for over twenty years could not open a checking account for me because I did not have proper identification.
Yes, you can use which and that both here....but using that is possible only when..there are multiple bank with which author had held the account for over 20 years... which I don't think is what author meant to say....if there = only one bank, then that cannot be used...we can have only which....

in the law example, that is correct because there most likely be >1 law that were inacted there....

The link that I had sent you of gmattoughies talk about the same in detail....
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Re: Relative noun: that and which

by sg7007 » Sat Jul 11, 2009 5:23 am
goelmohit2002 wrote: Yes, you can use which and that both here....but using that is possible only when..there are multiple bank with which author had held the account for over 20 years... which I don't think is what author meant to say....if there = only one bank, then that cannot be used...we can have only which....

in the law example, that is correct because there most likely be >1 law that were inacted there....

The link that I had sent you of gmattoughies talk about the same in detail....
Now, I get it. It makes sense. Yeah, I read the link that you gave; it was helpful.

Thank you so much!
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