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Punctuation!!!! .....HELP me out please!

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Punctuation!!!! .....HELP me out please!

by hrishi19884 » Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:59 am
- > Which is correct and which is wrong?Need explanation...let me know the meaning of each sentence also.

=>

A : The girl, who has golden hair, is my elder sister.

B : The girl who has golden hair is my elder sister.

C : The girl with golden hair, is my elder sister.

D : The girl with golden hair is my elder sister.

E : The girl, with golden hair, is my elder sister.

F : The girl, having golden hair is my elder sister.

G : The girl having golden hair is my elder sister.

H : The girl, having golden hair, is my elder sister.

=>

A : Maxwell with its largest data center, ranks third in the network operations.

B : Maxwell, with its largest data center, ranks third in the network operations.

C : Maxwell, with largest data center, ranks third in the network operations.

C : Maxwell, which has its largest data center, ranks third in the network operations.

D : Maxwell, which has largest data center, ranks third in the network operations.

E : Maxwell, having largest data center, ranks third in the network operations.

F : Maxwell having largest data center, ranks third in the network operations.

G : Maxwell, that has largest data center, ranks third in the network operations.

H : Maxwell, that, has largest data center, ranks third in the network operations.
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by hrishi19884 » Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:49 am
=>

A : The girl, who has golden hair, is my elder sister.
correct : "who has golden hair" is described correctly about the girl. Comma's are rightly placed here.

B : The girl who has golden hair is my elder sister.
correct : Simple sentence without punctuations.

C : The girl with golden hair, is my elder sister.
Incorrect : comma wrongly placed.

D : The girl with golden hair is my elder sister.
correct : Simple sentence without punctuations.

E : The girl, with golden hair, is my elder sister.
correct : commas placed correctly

F : The girl, having golden hair is my elder sister.
Incorrect : comma incorrectly placed.

G : The girl having golden hair is my elder sister.
Not sure

H : The girl, having golden hair, is my elder sister.
Incorrect : not sure
=>

A : Maxwell with its largest data center, ranks third in the network operations.
Not sure

B : Maxwell, with its largest data center, ranks third in the network operations.
Correct

C : Maxwell, with largest data center, ranks third in the network operations.
Not sure

C : Maxwell, which has its largest data center, ranks third in the network operations.
correct

D : Maxwell, which has largest data center, ranks third in the network operations.
correct

E : Maxwell, having largest data center, ranks third in the network operations.
not sure

F : Maxwell having largest data center, ranks third in the network operations.
not sure

G : Maxwell, that has largest data center, ranks third in the network operations.
incorrect

H : Maxwell, that, has largest data center, ranks third in the network operations.
incorrect.

I am not sure of above answers I don't the explanations also ;) It's just what I think.

please help!
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by Osirus@VeritasPrep » Wed Feb 10, 2010 7:26 am
hrishi19884 wrote:- > Which is correct and which is wrong?Need explanation...let me know the meaning of each sentence also.

=>

A : The girl, who has golden hair, is my elder sister.

This is technically not incorrect but would probably be the incorrect answer on the GMAT because "who has golden hair" is an essential modifier
B : The girl who has golden hair is my elder sister.

Correct

C : The girl with golden hair, is my elder sister.

Incorrect

D : The girl with golden hair is my elder sister.

correct

E : The girl, with golden hair, is my elder sister.

incorrect, you can't use commas with essential modifiers

F : The girl, having golden hair is my elder sister.

incorrect, this is just bad...lol

G : The girl having golden hair is my elder sister.
I'm not sure, I would have to look this up


H : The girl, having golden hair, is my elder sister.
Incorrect, in this case "having golden hair is essential, so it shouldn't be set off by commas, but I am unsure if you can use a gerund to modify girl, I have to look that up
=>

A : Maxwell with its largest data center, ranks third in the network operations.

B : Maxwell, with its largest data center, ranks third in the network operations.

C : Maxwell, with largest data center, ranks third in the network operations.

C : Maxwell, which has its largest data center, ranks third in the network operations.

D : Maxwell, which has largest data center, ranks third in the network operations.

E : Maxwell, having largest data center, ranks third in the network operations.

F : Maxwell having largest data center, ranks third in the network operations.

G : Maxwell, that has largest data center, ranks third in the network operations.

H : Maxwell, that, has largest data center, ranks third in the network operations.
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by hrishi19884 » Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:04 am
osirus, you rock buddy!!!

But I am still unclear about A and E

A, E - you say that it is essential modifier and we can't use comma

We get many questions in GMAT with comma.
Can we use "which" with commas then....wont it be an essential modifier.

Balloon, which is red in color, is my favorite. ---is there a essential modifier here?

temperature in US, estimated by scientists, is supposed to reach 30 degrees this year. ---Is this right?

How can we write the above without using commas?

Can you please illustrate on essential modifiers where to use and where not to use?
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by Osirus@VeritasPrep » Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:15 am
In the first sentence you would write it one of two ways:

1) The ballon that is red is my favorite.

A better way to say this though is like this:


2) The red balloon is my favorite

With the second sentence you can't say "temperature in the U.S., estimated by scientists"

the way its currently constructed it is saying that the U.S. is estimated by scientists. I would reword the entire sentence and say

"Scientists estimate that temperatures in the U.S. will reach 30 degrees this year."
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by hrishi19884 » Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:37 am
"With no natural predators and with expanses of green suburban neighborhoods where there is no hunting, the deer population in New Jersey, wildlife officials estimate, has grown to exceed 175,000. "

(the above one is the OA of a sample SC question.)

Now the below part in the above sentence

New Jersey, wildlife officials estimate, has

and the one in my example

temperature in US, estimated by scientists, is supposed to reach 30 degrees this year.

Are they different?

Ofcourse GMAT won't give such a simplified option in SC that you mentioned

"Scientists estimate that temperatures in the U.S. will reach 30 degrees this year." -- this simple will never be OA in GMAT

please explain? (mind that my first example is OA of a sample SC in GMAT, so cannot be wrong)
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by hrishi19884 » Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:43 am
I would appreciate if some instructor puts some light on my query.

Also, would love to see what are essential modifiers? when to use?and when not to use? with examples.
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by hrishi19884 » Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:49 am
Stuart, testluv, Ian, stacy ,Ron .....anybody there?
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by Osirus@VeritasPrep » Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:54 am
The difference between your example and what the official guide did is that you lead with the past participle. The past participle was acting as a modifier, so it couldn't be placed where you placed it. In the OG example, the statement "wildlife officials estimate" is an aside. What Manhattan GMAT calls a non-essential predicate. Let me know if you need more clarification.
hrishi19884 wrote:"With no natural predators and with expanses of green suburban neighborhoods where there is no hunting, the deer population in New Jersey, wildlife officials estimate, has grown to exceed 175,000. "

(the above one is the OA of a sample SC question.)

Now the below part in the above sentence

New Jersey, wildlife officials estimate, has

and the one in my example

temperature in US, estimated by scientists, is supposed to reach 30 degrees this year.

Are they different?

Ofcourse GMAT won't give such a simplified option in SC that you mentioned

"Scientists estimate that temperatures in the U.S. will reach 30 degrees this year." -- this simple will never be OA in GMAT

please explain? (mind that my first example is OA of a sample SC in GMAT, so cannot be wrong)
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by hrishi19884 » Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:20 am
Ofcourse yes osirus brother....want to have some more idea on "non-essential predicate"

But, why "non-essential predicate" do not create any error in the sentence.

statement "wildlife officials estimate" should have actually modified "New Jersey"

How can we decide - --- when the statement is aside/nonessential predicate and when it is not?

Now, in my example "estimated by scientists" could be aside

and if you want that I should not write it in past participle, I can rewrite it in present as below.

temperature in US, scientists estimate, is supposed to reach 30 degrees this year.

now is "scientists estimate" aside?

Why past participle cannot have aside/non essential predicate in its statement?

because in both cases "non essential predicate" doesn't have any referent in the sentence, so tense should not be a problem here.

What you say
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by hrishi19884 » Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:35 am
Also what if I add " as" to it. and remove "by" using past participle

Temperature in US, as scientists estimated, is supposed to reach 30 degrees this year.

If past participle can modify the part before it so should be the present participle, right?
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by Osirus@VeritasPrep » Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:46 am
The non-essential predicate doesn't create an error because its one of the exceptions to the touch rule that is allowed. Its something you have to be able to determine if you see it. The difference between a short, non-essential predicate is that it won't lead with a present or past participle. Present and past participles can be modifiers, so these non-essential predicates will never lead with one of those.

"temperature in US, scientists estimate, is supposed to reach 30 degrees this year.

now is "scientists estimate" aside? "

Yes, this would be an acceptable aside. The past participle in the old sentence was "estimated" you can't lead with that unless it touches the noun or verb it was intended to modify.


"
because in both cases "non essential predicate" doesn't have any referent in the sentence, so tense should not be a problem here."

No, in the previous sentence the past participle was modifying "temperature" that is why it was misplaced.
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by hrishi19884 » Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:53 am
osirus0830 wrote:
now is "scientists estimate" aside? "

Yes, this would be an acceptable aside. The past participle in the old sentence was "estimated" you can't lead with that unless it touches the noun or verb it was intended to modify.
Now as you said above ---can the below be "nonessential modifier"

Temperature in US, as scientists estimated, is supposed to reach 30 degrees this year.

or

Temperature in US, scientists estimated, is supposed to reach 30 degrees this year.

It touches the noun, right?
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by Osirus@VeritasPrep » Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:57 am
You don't need to touch the noun in those instances. The "as" makes it a short non-essential phrase, so it doesn't need to touch "temperature".


In the second sentence, "scientist have estimated' would be a short non-essential predicate, so it doesn't have to touch it either. The only time you should look for it to touch "temperature" is if it were worded:

"Temperatures in the U.S., estimated by scientists,..."

In this scenario, if you lead with "estimated", which is a past participle, should touch "temperature". If you don't lead or begin the clause/phrase with the past or present participle, then the phrase is not a modifier, so it does not have to touch "temperature"
hrishi19884 wrote:
osirus0830 wrote:
now is "scientists estimate" aside? "

Yes, this would be an acceptable aside. The past participle in the old sentence was "estimated" you can't lead with that unless it touches the noun or verb it was intended to modify.
Now as you said above ---can the below be "nonessential modifier"

Temperature in US, as scientists estimated, is supposed to reach 30 degrees this year.

or

Temperature in US, scientists estimated, is supposed to reach 30 degrees this year.

It touches the noun, right?
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by hrishi19884 » Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:32 am
Thanks Osirus!

Now,

1)Temperature in US that, scientists estimate, is supposed to reach 30 degrees this year, is a complete bad luck.

"that" prevents "scientists" from modifying "U.S." -- Is it true?
Also, can we still say that "scientist estimate" is a "non essential modifier" ?

2) Temperature in US, that, scientists estimate, is supposed to reach 30 degrees this year, is a complete bad luck.
Is this correct? Is meaning for 1) and 2) different?


3)Temperature in US which, scientists estimate, is supposed to reach 30 degrees this year, is a complete bad luck.

can we use "which" instead of "that"?

Also, let me know if all 4 sentences are correct or not?If not, then how can we make them valid.

Thanks!!

What if I remove "is a complete bad luck" in all 3 and remove all commas as below

4)Temperature in US which scientists estimate is supposed to reach 30 degrees this year.
can I use "that"in place of which here?
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