Minnesota

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vikram4689: Legendary Member; Posts: 1325; Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 6:24 amFollowed by: 14 members; Thanked: 105 times

by vikram4689 » Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:00 pm

Minnesota is the only one of the contiguous forty-eight states that still has a sizable wolf population. and where this predator remains the archenemy of cattle and sheep.
(A) that still has a sizable wolf population, and where
(B) that still has a sizable wolf population, where
(C) that still has a sizable population of wolves, and where
(D) where the population of wolves is still sizable;
(E) where there is still a sizable population of wolves and where

didn't get how "this predator (singular)"can refer to "wolves (plural)" in OA : E

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Source: Beat The GMAT — Sentence Correction | Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:00 pm

spartacus1412: Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts; Posts: 110; Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:28 pmFollowed by: 1 member; Location: India; Thanked: 13 times

by spartacus1412 » Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:42 pm

parallelism is the key here.

hence, the sentence should start with where.
So we are left with only 2 choices D & E.

D uses semicolon which indicates that the second part of the sentence should be independent of the first. But if this is the case , the second part of the sentence. doesn't make sense.

hence E

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vk_vinayak: Legendary Member; Posts: 502; Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:36 pmFollowed by: 21 members; Thanked: 99 times

by vk_vinayak » Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:04 pm

vikram4689 wrote:Minnesota is the only one of the contiguous forty-eight states that still has a sizable wolf population. and where this predator remains the archenemy of cattle and sheep.
(A) that still has a sizable wolf population, and where
(B) that still has a sizable wolf population, where
(C) that still has a sizable population of wolves, and where
(D) where the population of wolves is still sizable;
(E) where there is still a sizable population of wolves and where

didn't get how "this predator (singular)"can refer to "wolves (plural)" in OA : E

I too have the same doubt. But, since this predator is not underlined, I have made peace with it. Also, I have seen that in many BBC documentaries David Attenborough keeps referring to group of animals (penguins, sharks etc) as a single animal: This little creature, this animal, this predator etc. So, I guess it's an accepted usage.

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vikram4689: Legendary Member; Posts: 1325; Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 6:24 amFollowed by: 14 members; Thanked: 105 times

by vikram4689 » Fri Jul 06, 2012 7:29 am

@spartacus1412 : agreed with your reasoning but issue still remains unsolved
@vk : people, even natives, make numerous errors while speaking english

EXPERTS please help. My concern is that while doing comparisons/referring to a noun we keep check of that/those to account for singular/plural antecedent. answer choice D in https://www.manhattangmat.com/forums/sc- ... t5121.html is wrong because "that" cannot refer to "designs". There must be some other reason for neglecting this issue in original sentence because OG answers are correct

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by Bill@VeritasPrep » Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:15 am

vk_vinayak wrote:
vikram4689 wrote:Minnesota is the only one of the contiguous forty-eight states that still has a sizable wolf population. and where this predator remains the archenemy of cattle and sheep.
(A) that still has a sizable wolf population, and where
(B) that still has a sizable wolf population, where
(C) that still has a sizable population of wolves, and where
(D) where the population of wolves is still sizable;
(E) where there is still a sizable population of wolves and where

didn't get how "this predator (singular)"can refer to "wolves (plural)" in OA : E
I too have the same doubt. But, since this predator is not underlined, I have made peace with it. Also, I have seen that in many BBC documentaries David Attenborough keeps referring to group of animals (penguins, sharks etc) as a single animal: This little creature, this animal, this predator etc. So, I guess it's an accepted usage.

Yes, it is entirely acceptable to use an individual to represent an entire group, i.e. "the lion is the most feared hunter in Africa."

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vikram4689: Legendary Member; Posts: 1325; Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 6:24 amFollowed by: 14 members; Thanked: 105 times

by vikram4689 » Fri Jul 06, 2012 7:06 pm

Bill@VeritasPrep wrote: Yes, it is entirely acceptable to use an individual to represent an entire group, i.e. "the lion is the most feared hunter in Africa."

In that case, what would be the difference b/w above "the lion is the most feared hunter in Africa." & "a lion is the most feared hunter in Africa."

Also, answer choice D in https://www.manhattangmat.com/forums/sc- ... t5121.html is wrong because "that" cannot refer to "designs"

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by GMATGuruNY » Sat Jul 07, 2012 2:32 am

vikram4689 wrote:
Bill@VeritasPrep wrote: Yes, it is entirely acceptable to use an individual to represent an entire group, i.e. "the lion is the most feared hunter in Africa."
In that case, what would be the difference b/w above "the lion is the most feared hunter in Africa." & "a lion is the most feared hunter in Africa."

Also, answer choice D in https://www.manhattangmat.com/forums/sc- ... t5121.html is wrong because "that" cannot refer to "designs"

A PRONOUN must agree with its antecedent.
In the sentence about Frank Lloyd Wright, that (singular) cannot serve as a pronoun standing in for designs (plural).

In the SC above, this serves not as a pronoun but as an ADJECTIVE modifying predator.
The only requirement here is that this (adjective) agree with predator (the noun being MODIFIED.)

Last edited by GMATGuruNY on Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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vikram4689: Legendary Member; Posts: 1325; Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 6:24 amFollowed by: 14 members; Thanked: 105 times

by vikram4689 » Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:33 am

mitch, your cameo stole the show

i have this distinction in my notes as well but somehow i forgot that 'this' is acting as demonstrative adjective https://www.grammar-monster.com/glossary ... ective.htm

Edited1: Adding the link
Edited2: Hyperlink was not added, trying again

Last edited by vikram4689 on Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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by GMATGuruNY » Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:30 pm

[posted in error and deleted]

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by Bill@VeritasPrep » Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:51 pm

GMATGuruNY wrote:
vikram4689 wrote:
Bill@VeritasPrep wrote: Yes, it is entirely acceptable to use an individual to represent an entire group, i.e. "the lion is the most feared hunter in Africa."
In that case, what would be the difference b/w above "the lion is the most feared hunter in Africa." & "a lion is the most feared hunter in Africa."

Also, answer choice D in https://www.manhattangmat.com/forums/sc- ... t5121.html is wrong because "that" cannot refer to "designs"
A PRONOUN must agree with its antecedent.
In the sentence about Frank Lloyd Wright, that (singular) cannot serve as a pronoun standing in for designs (plural).

In the SC above, this serves not as a pronoun but as an ADJECTIVE modifying predator.
The only requirement here is that this (adjective) agree with predator (the noun being MODIFIED.)

A key distinction, to be sure.

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by lunarpower » Sun Jul 08, 2012 7:31 pm

i received a PM about this thread.

i think it has basically been wrapped up, but, yeah -- basically, don't use baseball rules to play football. along the same lines, don't apply pronoun rules to things that aren't pronouns.

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vikram4689: Legendary Member; Posts: 1325; Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 6:24 amFollowed by: 14 members; Thanked: 105 times

by vikram4689 » Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:41 pm

experts,
'predator' is referring to 'wolves'... though it sounds awkward that singular predator is referring to plural wolves, IT MUST BE CORRECT since it is from OG. i would like to know
1) how to digest such information. should i learn that when a new noun is used to refer to another noun, case (singular/plural) does not matter
2) how would the sentence change if it used "these predators remain..."

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by GMATGuruNY » Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:45 pm

vikram4689 wrote:experts,
'predator' is referring to 'wolves'... though it sounds awkward that singular predator is referring to plural wolves, IT MUST BE CORRECT since it is from OG. i would like to know
1) how to digest such information. should i learn that when a new noun is used to refer to another noun, case (singular/plural) does not matter
2) how would the sentence change if it used "these predators remain..."

A singular noun that describes a group/category/type can serve to refer to a preceding plural noun.
John and Mary might be new to swimming, but THIS PAIR of athletes is still expected to take home an Olympic gold medal.
Here, this pair (singular) refers to John and Mary (plural), just as this predator in the SC above refers to wolves.

Of the contiguous forty-eights states, Minnesota is the only one where there is still a sizable population of wolves and where THESE PREDATORS remain the archenemy of cattle and sheep.
Here, these predators seems to refer to THE WOLVES OF MINNESOTA.
The result is the following nonsensical meaning:
MINNESOTA is the only state where THE WOLVES OF MINNESOTA remain the archenemy of cattle and sheep.
Since it is highly unlikely that the wolves of Minnesota would be the archenemy of cattle and sheep in any other state, these predators does not convey the intended meaning.
The intended meaning is that Minnesota is the only state where a particular TYPE of predator remains the archenemy of cattle and sheep.

Please also note the following: in A and B, wolf serves not as a noun but as an ADJECTIVE modifying population.
It is incorrect for this predator to refer to a preceding adjective -- sufficient reason to eliminate A and B.

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by vikram4689 » Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:14 am

GMATGuruNY wrote:
vikram4689 wrote:experts,
'predator' is referring to 'wolves'... though it sounds awkward that singular predator is referring to plural wolves, IT MUST BE CORRECT since it is from OG. i would like to know
1) how to digest such information. should i learn that when a new noun is used to refer to another noun, case (singular/plural) does not matter
2) how would the sentence change if it used "these predators remain..."
A singular noun that describes a group/category/type can serve to refer to a preceding plural noun.
John and Mary might be new to swimming, but THIS PAIR of athletes is still expected to take home an Olympic gold medal.
Here, this pair (singular) refers to John and Mary (plural), just as this predator in the SC above refers to wolves.

Of the contiguous forty-eights states, Minnesota is the only one where there is still a sizable population of wolves and where THESE PREDATORS remain the archenemy of cattle and sheep.
Here, these predators seems to refer to THE WOLVES OF MINNESOTA.
The result is the following nonsensical meaning:
MINNESOTA is the only state where THE WOLVES OF MINNESOTA remain the archenemy of cattle and sheep.
Since it is highly unlikely that the wolves of Minnesota would be the archenemy of cattle and sheep in any other state, these predators does not convey the intended meaning.
The intended meaning is that Minnesota is the only state where a particular TYPE of predator remains the archenemy of cattle and sheep.

Please also note the following: in A and B, wolf serves not as a noun but as an ADJECTIVE modifying population.
It is incorrect for this predator to refer to a preceding adjective -- sufficient reason to eliminate A and B.

mitch,
here, word 'pair' inherently refers to both of them and that is why it is ok. to me this case seems different from the case we have in original question. lets consider below sentence..
"US has sizable population of athletes; this sportsperson is working day and night to win gold medal at london olympics."
here 'athletes' is comparable to 'wolves' and 'sportsperson' is comparable to 'predator'. what do you think about this sentence, please help me understand the same (may be with some examples as well)

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by GMATGuruNY » Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:08 am

vikram4689 wrote:
GMATGuruNY wrote:
vikram4689 wrote:experts,
'predator' is referring to 'wolves'... though it sounds awkward that singular predator is referring to plural wolves, IT MUST BE CORRECT since it is from OG. i would like to know
1) how to digest such information. should i learn that when a new noun is used to refer to another noun, case (singular/plural) does not matter
2) how would the sentence change if it used "these predators remain..."
A singular noun that describes a group/category/type can serve to refer to a preceding plural noun.
John and Mary might be new to swimming, but THIS PAIR of athletes is still expected to take home an Olympic gold medal.
Here, this pair (singular) refers to John and Mary (plural), just as this predator in the SC above refers to wolves.

Of the contiguous forty-eights states, Minnesota is the only one where there is still a sizable population of wolves and where THESE PREDATORS remain the archenemy of cattle and sheep.
Here, these predators seems to refer to THE WOLVES OF MINNESOTA.
The result is the following nonsensical meaning:
MINNESOTA is the only state where THE WOLVES OF MINNESOTA remain the archenemy of cattle and sheep.
Since it is highly unlikely that the wolves of Minnesota would be the archenemy of cattle and sheep in any other state, these predators does not convey the intended meaning.
The intended meaning is that Minnesota is the only state where a particular TYPE of predator remains the archenemy of cattle and sheep.

Please also note the following: in A and B, wolf serves not as a noun but as an ADJECTIVE modifying population.
It is incorrect for this predator to refer to a preceding adjective -- sufficient reason to eliminate A and B.
mitch,
here, word 'pair' inherently refers to both of them and that is why it is ok. to me this case seems different from the case we have in original question. lets consider below sentence..
"US has sizable population of athletes; this sportsperson is working day and night to win gold medal at london olympics."
here 'athletes' is comparable to 'wolves' and 'sportsperson' is comparable to 'predator'. what do you think about this sentence, please help me understand the same (may be with some examples as well)

The two usages are not analogous.
Whereas this predator refers to an entire CATEGORY -- a predator is a CATEGORY of animal that PREYS on other animals -- this sportsperson seems to refer to ONE SPECIFIC sportsperson.
The result is that a reader wonders WHICH sportsperson is being discussed.

My recommendation: when you see THIS X in an SC, ask yourself whether it's clear what THIS X refers to.
If the referent is CLEAR -- if you know that this predator serves to describe the wolves of Minnesota -- don't eliminate the answer choice.
If the referent is UNCLEAR -- if you can't figure out who this sportsperson is -- eliminate the answer choice.

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