Geometry - pretty tricky

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Geometry - pretty tricky

by Brent@GMATPrepNow » Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:38 pm
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Please note that this is not an official GMAT question; it’s my attempt to create difficult (650+ level) GMAT-style questions for this forum.

Note: After much discussion, it turns out that this question is missing the correct answer :oops: . Sorry about that. However, you can still try to find the correct solution. Just know that it's not listed in the answer choices.

Answer: [spoiler]5/2[/spoiler]
Last edited by Brent@GMATPrepNow on Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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by gaggleofgirls » Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:34 pm
using the side that has the two vertices on the circle....
a line from a point on the circle to the center of the circle will be the radius.

If you draw two lines to the center of the circle from the two verticies at 45 degree angles to the left side, then they will meet at the center.

This triangle is a 45/45/90 triangle withe 90 across from the side of length 4 (sqrt16).

So the sides of the triangle are x : x : xsqrt of 2 where 4 = xsqrt2
Solve for X and you get 2sqrt2 as the radius.

Another way to solve it is to just take 1/2 the hypotenuse drawn from the lower left vertice to the upper right one. This will be 4sqrt2 (as the sides are 4 and 4). So half of that is 2sqrt2, but I don't know how to prove that the line goes through the center (maybe because of the tangent point A?).

Still the answer is 2sqrt2

Answer = B

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by Brent@GMATPrepNow » Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:42 pm
gaggleofgirls wrote: If you draw two lines to the center of the circle from the two verticies at 45 degree angles to the left side, then they will meet at the center.

This triangle is a 45/45/90 triangle withe 90 across from the side of length 4 (sqrt16).
-Carrie
This isn't quite right. The angle at the center will not be 90 degrees.

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by gaggleofgirls » Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:44 pm
I was afraid of that.

Have to go pick up my kids and will ponder this some more.

Now assuming that it as something to do with a triangle to A, but not sure how.

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Re: Geometry - pretty tricky

by aroon7 » Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:15 pm
Brent Hanneson wrote:Image

Please note that this is not an official GMAT question; it’s my attempt to create difficult (650+ level) GMAT-style questions for this forum.
I dont know any straight method to solve this :shock:
but if it comes in the real test this is how i will try to find the answer...

pl refer the attachment

DC = 4
BC = 4
so, BD = 4*sqrt(2)

O is the mid-point of the diagonal.

Radius of the circle should be greater than 2... We can see the entire side of the square is a chord not passing through the center. Hence diameter is greater than 4 and radius is greater than 2.

So we can eliminate A, D, E.
Between B and C...

O cannot be the center, if OD is radius then DB is the diameter and should fit inside the circle.
This square cannot be fit exactly into this circle... So diagonal of the square is greater than the diameter... That is diameter is less than 4*sqrt(2)
so radius is less than 2*sqrt(2)

so I go for C
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CircleSquare.jpg

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by Ian Stewart » Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:19 pm
Another nice question, Brent. One thing- unless I'm being very foolish, I think answer choice E, which I'm assuming is meant to be the right answer, should read '5/2'?
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by Brent@GMATPrepNow » Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:26 pm
Ian Stewart wrote:Another nice question, Brent. One thing- unless I'm being very foolish, I think answer choice E, which I'm assuming is meant to be the right answer, should read '5/2'?
It certainly wouldn't be the first time one of my questions had a problem with it. I checked my solution, and I'm pretty sure it's not 5/2
But, now I'm definitely second-guessing myself :)
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Re: Geometry - pretty tricky

by Brent@GMATPrepNow » Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:32 pm
aroon7 wrote:
Brent Hanneson wrote:Image

Please note that this is not an official GMAT question; it’s my attempt to create difficult (650+ level) GMAT-style questions for this forum.
I dont know any straight method to solve this :shock:
but if it comes in the real test this is how i will try to find the answer...

pl refer the attachment

DC = 4
BC = 4
so, BD = 4*sqrt(2)

O is the mid-point of the diagonal.

Radius of the circle should be greater than 2... We can see the entire side of the square is a chord not passing through the center. Hence diameter is greater than 4 and radius is greater than 2.

So we can eliminate A, D, E.
Between B and C...

O cannot be the center, if OD is radius then DB is the diameter and should fit inside the circle.
This square cannot be fit exactly into this circle... So diagonal of the square is greater than the diameter... That is diameter is less than 4*sqrt(2)
so radius is less than 2*sqrt(2)

so I go for C
You're right that the answer is less than 2sqrt2, and this is an EXCELLENT way to maximize your guessing if you don't kow the correct answer.
However, the answer isn't C.
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by Ian Stewart » Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:38 pm
Well, here's my solution - it's late over here, though, so there may be an error! I imagine there are a few ways to get an answer here.

-call the centre of the circle O, and the centre of the square C

-draw the diameter of the circle passing through A, C and O. This will meet the left side of the square at a point we'll call B

-call the upper left hand corner of the square D

Now:

-AC is half of one side of the square; its length is 2.
-CB is also one half of one side of the square, so is also 2.
-let x equal the length of OC, the short distance between the center of the square and the center of the circle;
-the distance OB is then 2-x, since CB is 2;
-now, the radius is the distance OA, which is just OC + CA, and must therefore be 2+x in length

Finally, we have a right triangle ODB. OD is the hypotenuse of this triangle, and it is also a radius; its length is 2+x. The legs of this triangle are OB, which has length 2-x, and DB, which is half of one side of a square, so has length 2.

That is, ODB is a right triangle with side lengths 2-x, 2, 2+x. We can use algebra to find x, or we can see that if x = 1/2, we have sides that are exactly half those in a 3-4-5 triangle. Either way, the radius is 2+1/2 = 5/2.

Would be a bit easier to explain with a diagram! Am curious to see your solution, since I don't see an error in mine on a second pass.

_______

edit - and I'd add, nice work, aroon, with your estimation approach - that's a very clever way to get a maximum possible value for the radius.
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by Brent@GMATPrepNow » Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:55 pm
Ian, you are absolutely correct. The answer is 5/2
I checked your solution with a fine tooth comb and couldn't find any errors.
I then looked at my solution for the umpteenth time and FINALLY found my mistake. Very silly :oops:

It might be a good exercise for others to examine my incorrect answer to see where I goofed up so that they will not make the same (and all too common) error. I am posting it here.


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by gaggleofgirls » Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:07 pm
Brent Hanneson wrote:Ian, you are absolutely correct. The answer is 5/2
I checked your solution with a fine tooth comb and couldn't find any errors.
I then looked at my solution for the umpteenth time and FINALLY found my mistake. Very silly :oops:

It might be a good exercise for others to examine my incorrect answer to see where I goofed up so that they will not make the same (and all too common) error. I am posting it here.


Image
At least I can follow it from here.

you got to x=3/2, but then said that 3/2 was the answer.

r = 4-x
so r = 4-32
r = 5/2

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by Brent@GMATPrepNow » Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:11 pm
Exactly - I forgot that x isn't equal to the radius. Yikes.
Well, now I know that 3/2 will be a great distractor for this question (having fallen for it myself). :)

My humble apologies to anyone who got 5/2 (as Ian did) and were wondering why it wasn't one of the answer choices.
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by gaggleofgirls » Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:52 pm
One thing that was interesting with this question (and having unlimited time to solve it) was to figure out all the things I could figure out about the sqare and the circle - different angles, different triangle, hypotenuses, etc. I didn't hit on the right answer, but I did look at the problem through many different lenses and that is helpful.

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by jail » Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:38 am
I think there is an easier way to solve this problem, and it takes only a few seconds to solve it. You have to remember the cords properties, especially the one it says that the product of two sections of cords is the same that the product of the other two.

In this case we have a section of 4 (because the side of the circle is 4) and the rest of the cord is X. In the other side we have a cord with two sections sizing 2.

Therefore,

4x= 2 * 2

x=1 so, the diameter of tyhe circle is 4 + 1 = 5 and the radius is 5/2

So, what do you think?

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by Brent@GMATPrepNow » Wed Jan 28, 2009 8:12 am
jail wrote:I think there is an easier way to solve this problem, and it takes only a few seconds to solve it. You have to remember the cords properties, especially the one it says that the product of two sections of cords is the same that the product of the other two.

In this case we have a section of 4 (because the side of the circle is 4) and the rest of the cord is X. In the other side we have a cord with two sections sizing 2.

Therefore,

4x= 2 * 2

x=1 so, the diameter of tyhe circle is 4 + 1 = 5 and the radius is 5/2

So, what do you think?
Very nice, jail. This theorem provides a MUCH faster solution.
For others, the theorem looks like this:
Image

When we apply it to the original question, we get:
Image

Very nice - thanks for that!
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