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His studies of ice-polished rocks (past perfect / simple pas

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His studies of ice-polished rocks (past perfect / simple pas

by 123nobody321 » Tue Sep 03, 2013 12:38 pm
Hi forum,

I have some troubles with this question:

His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine homeland, far outside the range of present-day glaciers, led Louis Agassiz in 1837 to propose the concept of an age in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas.

1)
2) in which great ice sheets existed in what are now temperate areas
3) when great ice sheets existed where there were areas now temperate
4) when great ice sheets had existed in current temperate areas
5) when great ice sheets existed in areas now that are temperate

Why is simple past correct and not past perfect? I know that past perfect is used to describe an action before another action in the past. Here, with "the concept" that he introduced, the action is farer away in the past than the currently temperate areas!?

Help is much appreciated.
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by Mike@Magoosh » Tue Sep 03, 2013 12:52 pm
123nobody321 wrote:Hi forum,

I have some troubles with this question:

His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine homeland, far outside the range of present-day glaciers, led Louis Agassiz in 1837 to propose the concept of an age in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas.

1)
2) in which great ice sheets existed in what are now temperate areas
3) when great ice sheets existed where there were areas now temperate
4) when great ice sheets had existed in current temperate areas
5) when great ice sheets existed in areas now that are temperate

Why is simple past correct and not past perfect? I know that past perfect is used to describe an action before another action in the past. Here, with "the concept" that he introduced, the action is farer away in the past than the currently temperate areas!?

Help is much appreciated.
Dear 123nobody321
I'm happy to help with this. :-)

This is a very subtle question. I would say that it's not black & white ---- that the past is 100% correct and the past perfect is 0% correct. It's more a shade of gray. Notice that the "proposing" and the "existing" are not juxtaposed at the same level of logical analysis. We most need the past perfect if we have two actions in a sequence, and we want to show one predates the other. Here, we have one action of Agassiz proposing a theory, and the other action inside the theory. There is no possible confusion between these. Furthermore, it's clear that the "great ice sheets" were in another "age", so clearly there in the past. We don't need the past perfect tense to emphasize that the existed in the past before the theory about them. That's why the past perfect is a little bit irrelevant. Nevertheless, notice --- as the GMAT often does --- if one option is not 100% incorrect, but say only 70% - 80% incorrect, they are always sure to toss in others errors to seal the deal.

Look at the two options in which the past perfect appears.
(A) has the glorious redundancy "now currently" -- right there, the kiss of death; see:
https://gmat.magoosh.com/lessons/920-avoid-redundancy
(D) has "current temperate areas" --- this is subtle; we are not trying to say that the areas are current, that the areas on Earth now exist --- of course they do!! We are trying to say that these areas are now temperate --- that is, they are currently temperate. We need the adverb, not the adjective. That's the sealing problem with (D).

So,yes, in the abstract, although there are reasons against the past perfect, one theoretically could still make a case for it. Because of that, the GMAT garnished those choices with other clear mistakes, so that there was no doubt.

Does all this make sense?
Mike :-)
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by Java_85 » Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:23 pm
So is D the OA ?
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by Mike@Magoosh » Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:45 pm
Java_85 wrote:So is D the OA ?
I should have made clear in my above post ---
This problem is in the OG13, and it is SC #72, appearing on p. 685 of the OG13. The OA = [spoiler](B)[/spoiler].

Mike :-)
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by [email protected] » Wed Sep 04, 2013 12:59 am
Hi All,

Here are a couple of other points worth noting in this SC:

1) The SC refers to "the concept of an age" - this refers to a TIME, so the word "when" is appropriate.

2) Since Louis Agassiz is referring to something in the past, the verb 'existed' is what we need.

3) The phrase "where there were areas" is redundant.

These clues point to answer E.

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by vinay1983 » Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:29 am
I do believe that E is the correct answer choice, but I have a query.

In option B

I states that "in which great ice sheets existed in what are now temperate areas "

The quoted part feels correct to me. Tell me in what conditions or situations will B be correct?

Please excuse my asking, but I have read the quoted phrase many a times in articles, novels etc.
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by [email protected] » Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:08 am
Hi vinay1983,

Unfortunately, the way that this SC is constructed means that you're likely to be tested on a rule that we call "The W's", so the phrase "in which" wouldn't be likely to be correct.

If a prompt refers to a specific TIME, then the word "when" is the proper style.

If a prompt refers to a specific PLACE, then the word "where" is the proper style.

The phrase "in which" is typically used IF the word "when" or "where" is used incorrectly (and needs to be replaced by "in which").

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by Mike@Magoosh » Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:14 pm
[email protected] wrote:Hi vinay1983,
Unfortunately, the way that this SC is constructed means that you're likely to be tested on a rule that we call "The W's", so the phrase "in which" wouldn't be likely to be correct.

If a prompt refers to a specific TIME, then the word "when" is the proper style.

If a prompt refers to a specific PLACE, then the word "where" is the proper style.

The phrase "in which" is typically used IF the word "when" or "where" is used incorrectly (and needs to be replaced by "in which").
Dear vinay1983 and Rich,
I don't agree with this "W's" rule ---- yes, "when" should only refer to a time, and "where" should only refer to a physical place. I absolutely agree that "where" should not be used for things that are not physical locations --- "an arrangement where ...", "a situation where ..." That definitely is wrong on the GMAT.

I disagree, though, that "in which" is wrong as it refers to a time or a place. I would argue that either "when" or "in which" is fine for time, and "where" or "in which" is fine for a location. For this particular question, the OA (B) uses "in which" correctly. Furthermore, MGMAT agrees with the position I am taking here --- "in which" is a perfectly acceptable substitute for "where" or "when".

Thoughts?
Mike :-)
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by michaels » Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:24 pm
Y'all might want to check the OG. The credited response is in fact B. You'll notice that the wrong answer many are trying to justify contains the expression "areas now that are temperate." "Now" is an adverb, meant to modify the adjective "temperate." Though adverbs need not always touch the words they modify, that sort of touching can prevent ambiguity. Also, I can't think of any GMAT-acceptable sentence (or even any sentence in Standard Written English) that includes an adverb (e.g. "now") immediately before a relative pronoun (e.g. "that").

Although I disagree with Mike on the best answer here, at least two things he writes are proven by this discussion: (1) It's best to start with easy splits among the answer choices, rather than subtle or contentious points of grammar. (2) The GMAT does accept "in which" to describe times.
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by sana.noor » Mon Sep 09, 2013 7:10 pm
as far as i know, OA is B not E. i confirmed it.
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by Mike@Magoosh » Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:56 am
michaels wrote:Although I disagree with Mike on the best answer here
sana.noor wrote:as far as i know, OA is B not E. i confirmed it.
Folks,
Many apologies. Apparently, I got confused shuffling back & forth between OG12 and OG13, and must have read the wrong question or something. Yes, yes, the OA indeed is [spoiler](B)[/spoiler], and I have updated my above entries accordingly. Sorry about any confusion.
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