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Usage of - When

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Usage of - When

by chetan86 » Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:32 am
Hi Experts,

I have a doubt regarding usage of WHEN.
I come across below SCs while solving OG Verbal Review 2.
OGVR2#45 : Under high pressure and intense heat, graphite, the most stable form of pure carbon, changes into the substance commonly referred to as diamond and remains thus even when the heat and pressure are removed.

OGVR2#50 : The bank holds $3 billion in loans that are seriously delinquent or in such trouble that it does not expect payments to be made when they are due.

OGVR2#76 : Under a provision of the Constitution that has never been applied, Congress is required to call a convention to consider possible amendments to the document when formally asked to do so by the legislatures of two-thirds of the states.

OGVR2#80 : Any medical test will sometimes fail to detect a condition when it is present and indicate that it is present when it is not.
In MGMAT SC guide for the usage of WHEN it is mentioned that :
The pronoun when can be used to modify a noun event or time, such as period, age, 1987 or decade.
Can anyone please explain me how the usage of WHEN is correct in above sentences even though it is not modifying time.
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by GMATGuruNY » Sun Jun 22, 2014 10:32 am
chetan86 wrote:Hi Experts,

I have a doubt regarding usage of WHEN.
I come across below SCs while solving OG Verbal Review 2.
OGVR2#45 : Under high pressure and intense heat, graphite, the most stable form of pure carbon, changes into the substance commonly referred to as diamond and remains thus even when the heat and pressure are removed.

OGVR2#50 : The bank holds $3 billion in loans that are seriously delinquent or in such trouble that it does not expect payments to be made when they are due.

OGVR2#76 : Under a provision of the Constitution that has never been applied, Congress is required to call a convention to consider possible amendments to the document when formally asked to do so by the legislatures of two-thirds of the states.

OGVR2#80 : Any medical test will sometimes fail to detect a condition when it is present and indicate that it is present when it is not.
In MGMAT SC guide for the usage of WHEN it is mentioned that :
The pronoun when can be used to modify a noun event or time, such as period, age, 1987 or decade.
Can anyone please explain me how the usage of WHEN is correct in above sentences even though it is not modifying time.
A when-clause can serve as an ADJECTIVE modifying a noun that refers to a period of time.
SC70 in the OG12: an age when great ice sheets existed.
Here, the clause in red serves as an adjective modifying an age, a noun that refers to a period of time.

A when-clause can also serve as an ADVERB.
In this case, the when-clause must express an action or state-of-being that takes place at the same TIME as the modified verb.
The bank expects payments to be made when they are due.
Here, the clause in red serves as an adverb modifying to be made, indicating the TIME at which the payments ARE TO BE MADE.

Both usages are correct; both are related to TIME.
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by lunarpower » Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:13 am
In all of the examples you've cited, "when" does refer to the actual timeframe when the following event happens.

Look at this pair of sentences:
When you return the goods, your money will be refunded.
If you return the goods, your money will be refunded.

The first sentence implies that your money will be refunded immediately when you return the goods. No delay. The refund occurs in the timeframe of the return--that's the point of "when".

The second sentence, on the other hand, carries no implication whatsoever about when the money will be given back. The second sentence can be a true statement even if you have to wait months or years to get the money back!
As long as it happens--at any time--then "if ... then ..." is true.

Hopefully, this pair of sentences will give you an adequate understanding.
Formal grammar classifications (adjective, adverb, whatever) are not helpful or relevant here, since they don't address the issue at hand. (In the pair of sentences above, "when" and "if" play exactly the same grammatical role. In terms of the aspect that chetan86 is actually asking about, though, they're completely different.)
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by chetan86 » Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:13 am
Hi Ron/Mitch,

Thanks a lot for your replies.
Now I think, I have understood the usage of WHEN.

In my above listed sentence WHEN is referring to 'that point of time' when the task/action is going to happen.

Thanks!
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by lunarpower » Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:16 pm
chetan86 wrote:Hi Ron/Mitch,

Thanks a lot for your replies.
Now I think, I have understood the usage of WHEN.

In my above listed sentence WHEN is referring to 'that point of time' when the task/action is going to happen.

Thanks!
Yes.
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by chetan86 » Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:49 pm
Thanks a lot Ron for your help. :) :)
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by prachi18oct » Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:12 pm
A similar case already mentioned by Mitch
OG 12 #70

His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine
homeland, far outside the range of present-day
glaciers, led Louis Agassiz in 1837 to propose the
concept of an age in which great ice sheets had
existed in now currently temperate areas.
(A) in which great ice sheets had existed in now
currently temperate areas
(B) in which great ice sheets existed in what are
now temperate areas
(C) when great ice sheets existed where there were
areas now temperate
(D) when great ice sheets had existed in current
temperate areas
(E) when great ice sheets existed in areas now that
are temperate

The explanation says that the usage of "in which" and "when" both are correct here.
But I do not understand how?
when great ice sheets existed in what are now temperate areas...is this also correct?
"in which/when great ice sheets existed" both modify noun "age"
how to decide if the usage of"in which" is correct???

Please explain.
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by lunarpower » Sun Jun 29, 2014 5:52 am
prachi18oct wrote:The explanation says that the usage of "in which" and "when" both are correct here.
But I do not understand how?
when great ice sheets existed in what are now temperate areas...is this also correct?
"in which/when great ice sheets existed" both modify noun "age"
how to decide if the usage of"in which" is correct???

Please explain.
This is just the normal use of "in which".
If it's idiomatically correct to say "in NOUN", then you can also write "(a/an/the) NOUN in which..."

E.g.,

Robert starred in this play.
... the play in which Robert starred ...

I was born in 1975.
In 1975, the year in which I was born, ...

And so on.
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by lunarpower » Sun Jun 29, 2014 5:52 am
chetan86 wrote:Thanks a lot Ron for your help. :) :)
You're welcome.
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