1000 SC Past participle not modifying Subject of Preceding C

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https://www.manhattangmat.com/forums/pos ... tml#p49102

yeah -- if you have a present participle modifier in front of a comma, it must be talking about the following subject.

in fact, the same is true for all four of the following types of initial modifiers:

(1) Starting with -ING, or starting with preposition + -ING (especially in + -ING)
(2) Starting with past participle
(3) NOUN + MODIFIERS (i.e., not a clause)
(4) Starting with an ADJECTIVE

examples:

(1)
WRONG:
Coming home from school, the wind blew me off my bike.
RIGHT:
Coming home from school, I was blown off my bike by the wind.

(2)
WRONG:
Thrown from a passing car, the blaze was ignited by a stray cigarette.
RIGHT:
Thrown from a passing car, a stray cigarette ignited the blaze.

(3)
WRONG:
A survivor of the Holocaust, Primo Levi's stories demonstrate a resolute determination in the face of tragedy and adversity.
RIGHT:
A survivor of the Holocaust, Primo Levi wrote stories that demonstrate a resolute determination in the face of tragedy and adversity.

(4)
WRONG:
Fresh from the tree, it was difficult to eat the mangoes because they were not yet ripe.
RIGHT:
Fresh from the tree, the mangoes were difficult to eat because they were not yet ripe.
Quoting Ron above ,
the past participle modifier following the comma must modify the subject of the preceding clause.

Here is a Problem from 1000 SC where the above rule is not applicable .I wish to know why the above rule is not applicable .

The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which was determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differing from city to city, and to the establishment of regional times.

(A) which was determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differing

(B) which was determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and which differed

(C) which were determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differing

(D) determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differed

(E) determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differing

Why is E correct when the past participle "determined " doesnt modify the subject of the preceding clause , "The Growth ... "
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by mundasingh123 » Sat Apr 30, 2011 5:02 am
https://www.manhattangmat.com/forums/100 ... t1787.html
Here is an excerpt from the discussion on the SC quoted above @url Quoted above
Quest to Stacey:
Hei wrote:
Hi Stacey, you say that C is not right because "were determined" is not parallel with "(were) differing". Is it because of the omitted "were"?[/b]
Rons Reply
nope, it runs deeper than that.

you're describing a state that simply existed back then, so, if you use 'were determined', you've got to use the simple past tense again: you'd say 'differed' in this case.

the construction 'were verbing' is limited to situations in which something else happened during the verb-ing.
example: while the man was chatting with his girlfriend, his cell phone broke the calm with its strident ringtone.
Can someone help me decipher Ron's Reply .
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by Jim@Grockit » Sat Apr 30, 2011 6:17 am
mundasingh123 wrote:https://www.manhattangmat.com/forums/100 ... t1787.html
Here is an excerpt from the discussion on the SC quoted above @url Quoted above
Quest to Stacey:
Hei wrote:
Hi Stacey, you say that C is not right because "were determined" is not parallel with "(were) differing". Is it because of the omitted "were"?[/b]
Rons Reply
nope, it runs deeper than that.

you're describing a state that simply existed back then, so, if you use 'were determined', you've got to use the simple past tense again: you'd say 'differed' in this case.

the construction 'were verbing' is limited to situations in which something else happened during the verb-ing.
example: while the man was chatting with his girlfriend, his cell phone broke the calm with its strident ringtone.
Can someone help me decipher Ron's Reply .
I take it to mean that he's saying the past progressive tense is only used when describing an action that "frames" another action:
|<-------- while the man was chatting with his girlfriend ------->|
|<-- his cell phone broke the calm ---->|

He may have been speaking specifically of the GMAT usage of the past progressive; it does actually appear in other contexts in real English:
What were you doing in there?
I was chatting with my girlfriend.

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by mundasingh123 » Sat Apr 30, 2011 6:33 am
Jim@Grockit wrote:
mundasingh123 wrote:https://www.manhattangmat.com/forums/100 ... t1787.html
Here is an excerpt from the discussion on the SC quoted above @url Quoted above
Quest to Stacey:
Hei wrote:
Hi Stacey, you say that C is not right because "were determined" is not parallel with "(were) differing". Is it because of the omitted "were"?[/b]
Rons Reply
nope, it runs deeper than that.

you're describing a state that simply existed back then, so, if you use 'were determined', you've got to use the simple past tense again: you'd say 'differed' in this case.

the construction 'were verbing' is limited to situations in which something else happened during the verb-ing.
example: while the man was chatting with his girlfriend, his cell phone broke the calm with its strident ringtone.
Can someone help me decipher Ron's Reply .
I take it to mean that he's saying the past progressive tense is only used when describing an action that "frames" another action:
|<-------- while the man was chatting with his girlfriend ------->|
|<-- his cell phone broke the calm ---->|

He may have been speaking specifically of the GMAT usage of the past progressive; it does actually appear in other contexts in real English:
What were you doing in there?
I was chatting with my girlfriend.
But isnt the Sc talking about past tense ie were determined .
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by lunarpower » Mon May 02, 2011 3:32 am
@ mundasingh:
mundasingh123 wrote:Why is E correct when the past participle "determined " doesnt modify the subject of the preceding clause , "The Growth ... "
that example has nothing do to with the post that you quoted.

the post that you quoted deals with initial modifiers that modify the following subject; the question you are discussing here has a following modifier that applies to an initial clause.
these are completely different constructions, so the four examples you've quoted, while useful to know, are irrelevant to this particular question.
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by mundasingh123 » Mon May 02, 2011 3:51 am
Hi Ron , Thanks for the clarifying that the rules depend on whether the modifier is an initial modifier or a Following Modifier .
I have 1 more question regarding this particular sc .
I must quote a post from the mgmat forums @
https://www.manhattangmat.com/forums/100 ... 87-15.html
"differed" is not a participle because it CAN'T be a participle. there is no such form.

only transitive verbs (i.e., verbs with DIRECT OBJECTS) can appear as the comma + past participle type of modifier.
this is true because this modifier is a passive voice form, and only verbs with objects can appear in the passive voice.

for instance:
"to throw" takes a direct object (i threw the ball).
therefore, it has passive forms (the ball was thrown).
therefore, it can appear in this sort of modifier (the ball, thrown by the pitcher, ...)

"differ" doesn't take a direct object, so it can't appear in the passive (e.g., it's impossible to say that something "is differed" or "was differed"). therefore, it can't appear as this sort of modifier, either.
Ron
are you saying that only transitive verbs (i.e., verbs with DIRECT OBJECTS) could appear as the comma + past participle type of modifier because "determined by " is in Passive form .
But the second clause "differing ... from city to city " which appears in the OA D is in the Active Voice .How can the 1st clause "determined by " be in passive and the second clause "differing " be in Active . Are such contructions acceptable ?
Differing doesn't have a direct object either . So if we cant have differed as the correct answer then why do we have differing as the correct answer ?
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by lunarpower » Mon May 02, 2011 4:07 am
mundasingh123 wrote:are you saying that only transitive verbs (i.e., verbs with DIRECT OBJECTS) could appear as the comma + past participle type of modifier because "determined by " is in Passive form .
correct.
But the second clause "differing ... from city to city " which appears in the OA D is in the Active Voice .How can the 1st clause "determined by " be in passive and the second clause "differing " be in Active . Are such contructions acceptable ?
absolutely acceptable -- both function as adjectives, so together they make a legitimate parallel structure.

active voice vs. passive voice is not a grammar issue at all -- it's entirely a meaning issue.
* for an OG problem in which exactly these two kinds of participles are in parallel, see OG12 #42 (in which the passive / past participle "spawned" is properly parallel to the active / present participle "extending").
* it's also possible to have active and passive verbs in parallel; see OG12 #36 (in which the active "joined" is parallel to the passive "was injured" and the passive "was discharged").
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by mundasingh123 » Mon May 02, 2011 4:37 am
Hi Ron Thanks for claifying this issue . The active Vs passive issue had been haunting me since a long time. But Ron, i still cant figure out why you feel that differing is the correct participle to be used rather than differed when you eliminated the use of differed here on grounds that it doesnt have a direct object . But differing doesnt have d irect object either .Please... Please explain to me why you wrote so ?
Differing doesn't have a direct object either . So if we cant have differed as the correct answer then why do we have differing as the correct answer ?
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by mundasingh123 » Mon May 02, 2011 1:36 pm
lunarpower wrote:@ mundasingh:
mundasingh123 wrote:Why is E correct when the past participle "determined " doesnt modify the subject of the preceding clause , "The Growth ... "
that example has nothing do to with the post that you quoted.

the post that you quoted deals with initial modifiers that modify the following subject; the question you are discussing here has a following modifier that applies to an initial clause.
these are completely different constructions, so the four examples you've quoted, while useful to know, are irrelevant to this particular question.
Ron , i guess the bolded portion in the post at https://www.beatthegmat.com/sc-t80992.html#356563
quoted below
that's a whole different thing.

when COMMA + PARTICIPLE is placed after a whole clause, it generally modifies the whole clause.
the participle should relate most directly to the subject of the clause -- e.g., jack is the one who is "excited" in the example above -- but the participle should in some way modify the entire idea of the clause. this is how the above example works: "excited at the prospect..." doesn't just describe jack, it describes the entire way in which jack jumped into the gym.

when COMMA + PARTICIPLE is placed after just a noun (or noun + modifiers) -- as in the case of the x-ray emission problem -- then it's talking about a noun.
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by lunarpower » Tue May 03, 2011 9:56 pm
mundasingh123 wrote:Hi Ron Thanks for claifying this issue . The active Vs passive issue had been haunting me since a long time. But Ron, i still cant figure out why you feel that differing is the correct participle to be used rather than differed when you eliminated the use of differed here on grounds that it doesnt have a direct object . But differing doesnt have d irect object either .Please... Please explain to me why you wrote so ?
Differing doesn't have a direct object either . So if we cant have differed as the correct answer then why do we have differing as the correct answer ?
-ING's are active, and so don't require objects.
when a verb is written in the passive, the subject plays the role of the direct object -- so, if a verb can't take a direct object, then it can't be written in the passive.
for instance:
Raoul broke the window --> written in active; note that "window" is the direct object of "broke".
the window was broken (by Raoul) --> converted to passive; note that "window" -- which still plays the role of a direct object -- is now the subject of the passive voice.

Christine drove me home --> active; i am the direct object.
i was driven home (by christine) --> passive; i am still playing the role of the direct object (i.e., someone still drove me), but now i'm grammatically the subject of the sentence.

this is how all passive-voice constructions are formed -- so, if a verb doesn't take direct objects, then it is impossible to write that verb in the passive voice.
for instance, differ is a verb that doesn't take direct objects; i.e., it is impossible to write i differed something.
therefore, correspondingly, it is also impossible to write X was differed; hence, "differed" as a modifier is also wrong, for the same reason.

these considerations apply only to the passive, and to constructions that correspond to the passive. because -ING modifiers are not passive constructions, this is a non-issue with regard to such modifiers.
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.

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by lunarpower » Tue May 03, 2011 10:04 pm
... and regarding the use of the "comma + DIFFERING" modifier -- yes, that modifier isn't used correctly. again, this is what happens when you take questions from a crappy source, such as "1000sc".
DO NOT TRUST 1000SC!
the vast majority of questions in 1000sc have serious issues
; generally, the only 1000sc questions that are any good are the ones that have been lifted from gmat prep and/or OG.

this sentence should not be written with comma + "differing" -- note that the inclusion of this modifier in a parallel structure doesn't change its use -- because it doesn't properly modify the previous clause.

it should be properly written as
...local times, which were determined by xxxxxxxxxx and differed ....
OR
...local times, which were determined by xxxxxxxxxx and which differed ....
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by mundasingh123 » Wed May 04, 2011 12:22 am
Thanks Ron . Henceforth i am going to view 1000 SCs with some suspicion .Thank you for explaining the passive constructions so lucidly . I dont find such elaborate and lucid explanations in the MGMAT SC guide .
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