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Got laid off, time to study for this exam and need help

by Financial Puma » Mon May 11, 2009 9:20 am
Hello there,

I am new to the site, I have seen it a couple of time in the past but never made an account until recently, or atleast, until I got laid off! lol...
I graduated from undergrad in 2006 with dual degrees in finance. My major worry is not being able to get into a good school and by that I mean top 15 minimum in the country. I had a 2.6 GPA which is abysmal while playing college football and running a business I owned around the clock. I was never that into studying for exams back then as I had football and work to worry about to pay my way through school.
After graduation I took the GMAT twice, once I got a 440 and I didn't study at all and the 2nd time around I took a Kaplan course got a 490 which again, didn't really study too much at either. I didnt really try hard or care about grad school at the time.

After noticing my heart really was not into grad school after graduation, I went to work in the DC area. I worked at a few places before going over to Merrill Lynch as a financial advisor, and that I believe was the pinnacle turning point for my view on studying. See I had to take the series 7 and series 66 and if you don't pass then your fired. So I studied harder than ever my entire life for the series 7 for 2 months straight every day and I passed! then I did the same with the series 66 and had 1 month of study time for that, and I passed that as well! and that is when I really learned how to study.

So now, I want to take a look at the GMAT again, and feel that if I take the time and have the tenacity to go after it I will do well, which is what leads me to this post, what should I do first? What study materials should I get? and which GMAT classes have been the most helpful? I am sure the series 7 and 66 are not like the GMAT as far as studying, so any help or tips would be fantastic.

Do you think getting into a good grad program might be possible for me? I am not really sure, I feel that if I can get a 700 or so, that might be able my only way in including with my work experience because I am sure my grades aren't something that will help at all.
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by JasonReynolds » Thu May 21, 2009 1:31 am
It seems like you have a lot of work ahead of you. I don't think I would even take the test again unless I felt comfortable I'd be in the 650+ range.


Personally, I think you want to start with doing a lot of hardcore preparation on both fronts. I recommend the Manhattan GMAT class as probably working well for you, but I think you may want to work through your Kaplan materials on your own first. Do a thorough review so you are as prepared as possible when you join the class. Stay on top of your course work and hopefully you start seeing improvement.

My guess is with over a 650, you can take your career/life experiences and paint a solid story, and get into a decent business school. Don't set the bar too high, but the key is that you can get into a business school that will advance your career, and thats what matters. Lastly, business school isnt the only way to advance your career. There is always the CPA or the CFA..though honestly, the CFA is a lot harder than the GMAT.
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Working on that

by Financial Puma » Thu May 21, 2009 6:05 am
Yeah, I just ordered the manhattan gmat books and bought the OG 11 along with the GMAT hacks math bible. I am going to go through the math bible, put in about 2-3 hrs a day on it and finish it, then go through the OG 11 with math bible, then go through manhattan gmat books, and after all that is said and done, start taking practice tests. Or do you think I should take practice tests during and before I do all the prep work? I just dont want to get discouraged if I take tests now because I feel like I need a brush up on the basics all over again. I feel I can narrow down my weaknesses one by one and then if I still have gaps or loop holes and need help I will take the manhattan gmat class afterwards cause it cant hurt.

I didnt enjoy the kaplan material at all, and the class was terrible too. So I am staying away from that stuff. And to be honest I took it 3 years ago, so I am not sure where that stuff is anymore either. I have heard manhattan GMAT is the best material, so I am pushing forward with that.
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by JasonReynolds » Thu May 21, 2009 10:41 am
So I think your best bet is to not even worry about the tests right now. What you want to do is focus on building a solid foundation for answering questions. If your at the 500 level, there are currently too many questions that you don't know how to do and thats what you need to fix. For example, Sentence correction is something that is very trainable. Make sure you do keep track of time on your practice questions. Its okay to take a bit longer to solve questions, but be conscious of how long it does take you.

If it takes you 3 minutes per math question, you are eventually going to have to get that down to 2 minutes, but for now, learning is key. This is probably going to be a long road, but if you are committed to it, I don't think there is that much in the GMAT that isn't fully learnable. G'luck.
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thanks for the insight

by Financial Puma » Thu May 21, 2009 11:08 am
Yeah, I agree, that is what I am doing, when I took the exam the first 2 times, the very 1st time i walked right in the exam and didnt know they had DS so when I saw it, I was like, wtf is this.... then the second time, again, never practiced.

I am starting from the ground up this time so I dont get frustrated, its better to learn the basics all over again so that I will be able to understand this stuff better.

Right now I am going through the gmat hacks math bible and will do the practice questions it has after each chapter to get practice. I am generally good with math, but oddly, I have forgotten a lot of geometry and algebra over time. I will let you guys know how I do after my first real exam, but it wont be for a while, I want to get through all of the study material before I take the real thing. Then I can pick myself up off of the ground and see what my real weaknesses are.
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by skang357 » Thu May 21, 2009 12:36 pm
If you graduated from college in 2006, you might be too young for most programs. I see a lot of kids with 750 GMAT's get dinged by programs, albeit these are top programs or at least top 20 like Haas. And the only reason I can come up with is that they are 27 years old or younger.

With a 2.6 GPA, you're also gonna face problems with a sub 700 gmat. That's the bottom line.

Look at all of the scores that people update on "I just beat the GMAT" section in this site.

700's are thrown around like nothing. A 700 is like everyone and their mother nowadays. LOL

My advice to you is that you should spend a year or two since you're still young taking classes to build an alternative transcript. Get all A's and then study as well to get a 700. With a year or two of study under your belt, I bet anybody can get over a 700 on the GMAT.

Oh and get a job and build a track record of achievement. Document your promotions, projects you lead and finished with success, anything that shows your leadership and initiative.

Also volunteer. Get involved in the community or do something that shows you have a commitment to social welfare. This also shows leadership and shows that you have compassion, which is what's required to be a leader.

I've studied the application process for B-school since 2002. So I"m pretty sure the above is a formula for success. Spend at least two years doing the above and you will be on your way to a great program.
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by JasonReynolds » Thu May 21, 2009 1:14 pm
skang357 wrote:If you graduated from college in 2006, you might be too young for most programs. I see a lot of kids with 750 GMAT's get dinged by programs, albeit these are top programs or at least top 20 like Haas. And the only reason I can come up with is that they are 27 years old or younger.

With a 2.6 GPA, you're also gonna face problems with a sub 700 gmat. That's the bottom line.

Look at all of the scores that people update on "I just beat the GMAT" section in this site.

700's are thrown around like nothing. A 700 is like everyone and their mother nowadays. LOL

My advice to you is that you should spend a year or two since you're still young taking classes to build an alternative transcript. Get all A's and then study as well to get a 700. With a year or two of study under your belt, I bet anybody can get over a 700 on the GMAT.

Oh and get a job and build a track record of achievement. Document your promotions, projects you lead and finished with success, anything that shows your leadership and initiative.

Also volunteer. Get involved in the community or do something that shows you have a commitment to social welfare. This also shows leadership and shows that you have compassion, which is what's required to be a leader.

I've studied the application process for B-school since 2002. So I"m pretty sure the above is a formula for success. Spend at least two years doing the above and you will be on your way to a great program.
I get what you are saying, but its sort of a luxury many people don't have in this job market. Its easier said than done to "get a job, and build experience." Its also easier said than done to build an alternative transcript. That requires a high investment in money to pay for school, and this is all under the assumption that he'll get that 700 at some point. To say 700 are being thrown around by everyone is kind of crazy?

Its still means you beat 90% of people in the world on this test, which means a lot since the GMAT is taken by an already self-selected group of intelligent people. Moreover, its still just slightly below the average score of all the top 10 B-schools. The truth is, most people don't make jumps from 450 to 700, but it in no way means it cant be done.

It seems that since he does have a lot of free time now that he is unemployed, its a perfect opportunity to try and do well on the GMAT. Realistically, he probably shouldn't be lookin at HBS and Northwestern, but something like Vandy or Georgetown could be a realistic goal. They have averages in the 660-680 range. Work on the score, shoot for 700, and if you get that out of the way, you can work on the rest of your application.

I think once you know you took care of the GMAT, you can really figure out how to build your application. You may have some interesting options in the nonprofit route, or maybe you get a masters in Finance. But I think if you really want to goto business school, you are better off dealing with the GMAT, rather than putting tons of money into an alternate transcript. And by the way, they will understand some of your GPA issues were related to a grueling football schedule. You can build that into your application.
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by skang357 » Thu May 21, 2009 1:34 pm
JasonReynolds wrote:
skang357 wrote:If you graduated from college in 2006, you might be too young for most programs. I see a lot of kids with 750 GMAT's get dinged by programs, albeit these are top programs or at least top 20 like Haas. And the only reason I can come up with is that they are 27 years old or younger.

With a 2.6 GPA, you're also gonna face problems with a sub 700 gmat. That's the bottom line.

Look at all of the scores that people update on "I just beat the GMAT" section in this site.

700's are thrown around like nothing. A 700 is like everyone and their mother nowadays. LOL

My advice to you is that you should spend a year or two since you're still young taking classes to build an alternative transcript. Get all A's and then study as well to get a 700. With a year or two of study under your belt, I bet anybody can get over a 700 on the GMAT.

Oh and get a job and build a track record of achievement. Document your promotions, projects you lead and finished with success, anything that shows your leadership and initiative.

Also volunteer. Get involved in the community or do something that shows you have a commitment to social welfare. This also shows leadership and shows that you have compassion, which is what's required to be a leader.

I've studied the application process for B-school since 2002. So I"m pretty sure the above is a formula for success. Spend at least two years doing the above and you will be on your way to a great program.
I get what you are saying, but its sort of a luxury many people don't have in this job market. Its easier said than done to "get a job, and build experience." Its also easier said than done to build an alternative transcript. That requires a high investment in money to pay for school, and this is all under the assumption that he'll get that 700 at some point. To say 700 are being thrown around by everyone is kind of crazy?

Its still means you beat 90% of people in the world on this test, which means a lot since the GMAT is taken by an already self-selected group of intelligent people. Moreover, its still just slightly below the average score of all the top 10 B-schools. The truth is, most people don't make jumps from 450 to 700, but it in no way means it cant be done.

It seems that since he does have a lot of free time now that he is unemployed, its a perfect opportunity to try and do well on the GMAT. Realistically, he probably shouldn't be lookin at HBS and Northwestern, but something like Vandy or Georgetown could be a realistic goal. They have averages in the 660-680 range. Work on the score, shoot for 700, and if you get that out of the way, you can work on the rest of your application.

I think once you know you took care of the GMAT, you can really figure out how to build your application. You may have some interesting options in the nonprofit route, or maybe you get a masters in Finance. But I think if you really want to goto business school, you are better off dealing with the GMAT, rather than putting tons of money into an alternate transcript. And by the way, they will understand some of your GPA issues were related to a grueling football schedule. You can build that into your application.

Dunno, I think my answer is pretty much the core answer for most people and then it changes a little bit depending on what schools they are shooting for, what demographic they belong to, etc.

Honestly, the application process and the pool itself has gotten more competitive even in the last 5 years.

There is an emerging class of young people from India and China and Eastern Europe that is hyperinflating GMAT scores.

Most of these people don't even apply to HSW, and so you have schools like Olin (ranked 31st) that has a 700 GMAT median/average.

The schools you mentioned, GTown and Vandy are even ranked higher than a school like Olin.

I follow thread of prospective applicants who apply to certain schools. Yes I see people with 710/730 GMAT's and 3.1 GPA's get dinged by programs that are not even top 20.

That says something about the competition most people face when they are applying nowadays.

The guy doesn't need to get a good job. He doesn't need to work at Goldman Sachs. Any job would do really. It all matters in the spin one can put on it. In that respect I also recommend the applicant to start looking at the essay questions of the school he is targeting and then think about what he's going to write. He can buy an essay book or check it out from the library, or even find some online and look at examples of essays that did work.

Lastly, I have a 2.2 undergrad GPA from Ivy.

However I made it up by taking 5 classes at a JC college and got all A's in them. (A bunch of higher level accounting classes since I"m shooting for a CPA. You can even wow the Adcomm further by taking classes like Calculus 3, Linear Algebra, Differential Equations and get A's in them too but if you can do that you should not be applying to BSchool but perhaps Master in Financial Engineering - these classes are all given at any JC)

Guess how much those classes cost me? 300 bucks plus the cost of books, maybe another 300 bucks (you can find a lot in Amazon that are used for a fraction of the full price)

I graduated almost 10 years earlier than this guy. I got a 680 on the GMAT. I've got great essays. I have 5 years of international work experience plus another 5 years of experience working at some Fortune 100's) Great recommendations.

I have volunteer experience (3 years)

I applied to Olin and they dinged me 30 days earlier than their decision date.

LOL.

I thought I had a really crappy GPA that I sort of made up with the alternative transcript.

I thought my GMAT was at the lower end of the acceptable. But still it was around the average for Olin.

In hindsight, now I know the reality.

And the reality is that nowadays people are trying harder than they used to, and my sh*t is just not good enough to what most people bring to the table.

So yeah, even at places like Vandy or GTown or Olin, not HSW, you're gonna still need to bring your A game because everyone else is too.
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by Financial Puma » Thu May 21, 2009 1:53 pm
I appreciate the opinion Skang. The issue with the job is this, I worked at a big investment firm, dealt with millions of dollars. So I am not going to go settle for an edward jones or a new york life if you get my drift. Investment banks arent hiring at the moment, however, I have clinched an interview with Goldman Sachs here in the coming weeks. I have spoken with Smith Barney and Morgan Stanley as well however, they are waiting for the JV to go through and aren't budging until it does. If I take a job, it will have to have tuition reimbursement, and the big firms do that.

I have been out of school with solid work experience as well as extra curricular activities for 3 years. Now perhaps you are correct, and a 700 isnt anything great to you, but it is 90th percentile and since im sitting around waiting for the financial market to open back up, I am not one to sit and do nothing, I might as well push forward in some way then throw my hands in the air. I am not a quitter, never have been, never will be, you make your own luck, and hard work provides results. That is the mentality I have grown up on and have used to play college football (partial scholarship) and run a business that paid for most of my college degree while I double majored and got out in 4 years (don't ask how its all a blur).

I am not interested in taking additional classes or creating an alternative transcript. That to me is a waste of time. I would much rather use that energy on this exam. I am looking to try to get into a Georgetown or something near the DC area, UVA would be great, in state tuition, but thats a long shot.

450-700 isn't going to be easy, but the 450 I take with a grain of salt, because I did not open a book for it, and when I walked into the exam, I have no idea what the heck DS even was. I literally walked in thinking it was just some math and verbal and that was it.... nice wake up call I guess:P But I have a lot of work to do and a lot of practice, and I dont deny that by any means. I think it is do able with anybody if they have the right mentality and in my favor the great thing right now is, I have a lot of time on my hands:) and in the meantime I am looking for a job, just with the top investment banks or anybody willing to pay for an MBA, which in this economy is nobody at the moment.....
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by skang357 » Thu May 21, 2009 2:10 pm
Financial Puma wrote:I appreciate the opinion Skang. The issue with the job is this, I worked at a big investment firm, dealt with millions of dollars. So I am not going to go settle for an edward jones or a new york life if you get my drift. Investment banks arent hiring at the moment, however, I have clinched an interview with Goldman Sachs here in the coming weeks. I have spoken with Smith Barney and Morgan Stanley as well however, they are waiting for the JV to go through and aren't budging until it does. If I take a job, it will have to have tuition reimbursement, and the big firms do that.

I have been out of school with solid work experience as well as extra curricular activities for 3 years. Now perhaps you are correct, and a 700 isnt anything great to you, but it is 90th percentile and since im sitting around waiting for the financial market to open back up, I am not one to sit and do nothing, I might as well push forward in some way then throw my hands in the air. I am not a quitter, never have been, never will be, you make your own luck, and hard work provides results. That is the mentality I have grown up on and have used to play college football (partial scholarship) and run a business that paid for most of my college degree while I double majored and got out in 4 years (don't ask how its all a blur).

I am not interested in taking additional classes or creating an alternative transcript. That to me is a waste of time. I would much rather use that energy on this exam. I am looking to try to get into a Georgetown or something near the DC area, UVA would be great, in state tuition, but thats a long shot.

450-700 isn't going to be easy, but the 450 I take with a grain of salt, because I did not open a book for it, and when I walked into the exam, I have no idea what the heck DS even was. I literally walked in thinking it was just some math and verbal and that was it.... nice wake up call I guess:P But I have a lot of work to do and a lot of practice, and I dont deny that by any means. I think it is do able with anybody if they have the right mentality and in my favor the great thing right now is, I have a lot of time on my hands:) and in the meantime I am looking for a job, just with the top investment banks or anybody willing to pay for an MBA, which in this economy is nobody at the moment.....
Sounds like you need to get some more experience in my opinion.

But that's just my opinion. Let the chips fall where they may and wish you luck! Let us know how you do.

I'd say with a 680 + gmat you have a decent chance at Darden or McDonnell is it (Gtown)?

And if you don't get in since you say you're not a quitter I'm sure you'll eventually try whatever else you can do to get in, and I'm sure some of those will be within the range of what I explained to you. That's what I did and that lead me here.

Of course some people have more success than others, but in the end, we're all dust in the wind my friend.

Good luck mate...
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by Financial Puma » Thu May 21, 2009 2:19 pm
Oh, I agree, experience wont hurt, cant hurt, but if nobody in my industry is hiring, should I go do something not related to my field? thats the dilemma....

I majored in corporate finance and personal financial planning. so finance is my education, I am terrified to step out of this realm because I think that would dent my resume and business schools are gonna say, why did you leave the field. that is what I don't want.... Also, I would go back to get an MBA in finance and probably part time so that I could work on the side.

Worst comes to worst, and I do need the experience, I work hard now, take this exam do well and hold the record up to 5 yrs correct? then when the time is right, I can apply with the score in experience in hand.

Right now I am not looking at specific schools, I am looking to knock the socks off this thing, thats the main goal, I will worry about the schools after im happy with my score.

P.S. I have been in the library for several hours reading this jeff sackman math bible, its good stuff for basics, I need to practice more, I can tell im rusty.
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by skang357 » Thu May 21, 2009 2:30 pm
Financial Puma wrote:Oh, I agree, experience wont hurt, cant hurt, but if nobody in my industry is hiring, should I go do something not related to my field? thats the dilemma....

I majored in corporate finance and personal financial planning. so finance is my education, I am terrified to step out of this realm because I think that would dent my resume and business schools are gonna say, why did you leave the field. that is what I don't want.... Also, I would go back to get an MBA in finance and probably part time so that I could work on the side.

Worst comes to worst, and I do need the experience, I work hard now, take this exam do well and hold the record up to 5 yrs correct? then when the time is right, I can apply with the score in experience in hand.

Right now I am not looking at specific schools, I am looking to knock the socks off this thing, thats the main goal, I will worry about the schools after im happy with my score.

P.S. I have been in the library for several hours reading this jeff sackman math bible, its good stuff for basics, I need to practice more, I can tell im rusty.
Seriously man, if I were you, I would take those community college classes I mentioned. Just take one a semester. If you got C's in Economics, Stat or Accounting, take those.

Take those classes online too. Most JC's have online schedule now so it makes everything convenient. It doesn't say online on the transcript.

I have never seen anybody get into a good program that has less than 2.9 that did not take some classes to make up the GPA. You have 2.6.

The adcomm is gonna wonder why you have a 2.6.

The admissions game is a game of balancing. They balance your profile against another profile and see which one they're gonna admit.

There are probably 3 or 4 people that are exactly the same as you in the pool.

However, they all have 700 GMAT, plus good work experience, plus +3.00 gpa.

Who do you think they're going to take?

You need to get high GMAT and high GPA nowadays. Honestly you need to also get a gold medal in the olympics and start a company and take it to an IPO. That's the only way to guarantee a spot in a top program.

Read BW Forums. You'll see what I'm talking about. Take your time man. Like I said, you're too young for school right now. Get a job, take some classes, take the GMAT. Give yourself two years, by then the economy will turn around, and you might not even want to apply for a full time program. But at least by then, you'll give yourself enough time to get the bullets you need to fight the war.

You gotta bring the right arsenal to war. Sounds like you just want to go to war now. What's the rush, you're a young dude.

Get those A's in the classes man. You'll thank me later when you get in. Study the GMAT every weekend. That's plenty of time.

As for a job, well yeah, it sort of sucks right now. Just do what you can do find something. You might need to go do something that's a little bit beneath what you've been doing.

Don't knock those companies like Edward Jones or MetLife.

Remember, Merrill Lynch, Morgan Stanley, Lehman Brothers.

Those used to be prestigious investment banks that only employ Ivy League graduates and rocket scientist PhD's and invest "millions of dollars" like you said.

Well guess what happened to them dawg?

Most of them are either bankrupt, not existing, or belong to another company now.

I bet Edward Jones is laughing face off at Lehman and Morgan Stanley because they are still self sufficient and MetLife is thumbing its nose at AIG.
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by 4score20 » Tue May 26, 2009 11:52 am
You might try any of the OG series, Kaplan, or Manhattan GMAT.
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by Financial Puma » Wed May 27, 2009 11:05 am
Yes, I got OG11, OG 12 all the new manhattan books and GMAT HACKS math bible. I am starting from the basics and working my way up starting with the math bible then will move onto all the manhattan books, then start og11 and dissect it slowly, its a long process but if I want a great score, I have to make sure I have a good grasp on everything
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