Tips needed to save time PS/ DS

This topic has expert replies
Junior | Next Rank: 30 Posts
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:52 am

Tips needed to save time PS/ DS

by sabal » Sun Nov 16, 2008 11:57 pm
The following three problems are from GMAT prep 2.
I spent way too much time on these..
at the end of it just decided to give it a random guess.
These questions typically seem to be the greater than less than types .
doing the trial and error eats up a lot of my time
Is there a method that I can apply to save time when I give my GMAT?

Question 1. DS
If mv < pv <0, is v>0?
1. m<p
2. m<0
The answer is D

Question 2. DS
If w+x <0, is w-y>0?
1. x+y<0
2. y<x<w
The answer is B

Question 3. DS
Is y<(x+z)/2 ?
1. y-x<z-y
2. z-y>(z-x)/2
The Answer is d

Any tips to save time on questions like these??
Last edited by sabal on Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Source: — Data Sufficiency |

Legendary Member
Posts: 2467
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:14 pm
Thanked: 331 times
Followed by:11 members

by cramya » Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:25 pm
If mv < pv <0, is v>0?
1. m<p
2. m<0

question :Is v > 0 or Is v positive

Given : mv<pv<0

Since mv is -ve and pv is -ve

Either m is +ve v is -ve or v is +ve m is -ve

Either p is +ve v is -ve or v +ve p-ve
Since v is the same (i.e. either +ve or -ve) m and p mus be both positive or both negative


This is the key to solving this problem

Stmt I)

m<p

This tells us m and p are both negative so v is positive

Why?

Lets assume m and p are both positive and m<p

m=2 p=5 v has to be negative for mv and pv < 0

v = -1

mv = -2 pv=-5

Given mv<pv Is -2 < -5 no so m and p both have to be negative

Therefore v is positive v>0

SUFF


Stmt II

m<0 Since we said above that m and p must both be +ve or -ve we know p is -ve and therefore v +ve i.e v>0

SUFF

D)

I have tried to explain as best as I could but let me know if u still have questions

ALSO PLEASE POST 1 QUESTION PER THREAD

Legendary Member
Posts: 2467
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:14 pm
Thanked: 331 times
Followed by:11 members

by cramya » Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:36 pm
For 2) refer to stop@800's solution at
https://www.beatthegmat.com/gmat-prep-ques-t20015.html

Legendary Member
Posts: 2467
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:14 pm
Thanked: 331 times
Followed by:11 members

by cramya » Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:49 pm
For 3) I am getting D) but you have indicated the OA as A

Can u please double check?


To answer your question the only way to get a better handle on inequalities is to go through a good algebra book (Manhattan GMAT INEQUALITIES book is good too).Another option would be to search this forum for inequality problems and try to solve them or observe the solutions provided. If you do have a question all of us are here to help each other.


Good luck!

Regards,
Cramya

Newbie | Next Rank: 10 Posts
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:56 am
Location: Los Angeles

by LizinCali » Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:38 pm
What is the "e" in the response to the first question?

"Since mv is -ve and pv is -ve"

This is a lot of help!

Thanks!

LizinCali

GMAT/MBA Expert

User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 3380
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:20 am
Thanked: 2256 times
Followed by:1535 members
GMAT Score:800

by lunarpower » Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:57 am
LizinCali wrote:What is the "e" in the response to the first question?

"Since mv is -ve and pv is -ve"

This is a lot of help!

Thanks!

LizinCali
heh, that's a notation that's used fairly often on this board: "+ve" is short for "positive", and "-ve" is short for "negative".

i personally find this notation annoying and unhelpful. i mean, seriously, people! it only takes me about 0.3 second longer to type "positive" than to type "+ve".
still, you should get used to seeing it; it's exceedingly common around here.
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.

--

Pueden hacerle preguntas a Ron en castellano
Potete chiedere domande a Ron in italiano
On peut poser des questions à Ron en français
Voit esittää kysymyksiä Ron:lle myös suomeksi

--

Quand on se sent bien dans un vêtement, tout peut arriver. Un bon vêtement, c'est un passeport pour le bonheur.

Yves Saint-Laurent

--

Learn more about ron

GMAT/MBA Expert

User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 3380
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:20 am
Thanked: 2256 times
Followed by:1535 members
GMAT Score:800

Re: Tips needed to save time PS/ DS

by lunarpower » Wed Nov 19, 2008 4:11 am
there are some signals you should learn to recognize IMMEDIATELY in these problems.
number plugging is a nice backup method, but some of the rephrases i'm going to mention are canonical; you MUST learn to recognize them.
ideally, you should reserve number plugging for problems that are at least a bit novel or unusual. for a problem such as the first one below, for instance, number plugging means a failure to recognize things that you're supposed to be able to recognize.
this doesn't mean, of course, that you shouldn't use number plugging if you don't know how to interpret the problem; you should solve problems in whatever way you can conjure. however, to repeat, if you have to use number plugging on a problem like #1, you really need to study inequalities, positive/negative number properties, and rephrasing some more.
sabal wrote:Question 1. DS
If mv < pv <0, is v>0?
1. m<p
2. m<0
The answer is D
when you see a statement such as "mv < pv < 0", you should IMMEDIATELY start thinking of CASES.
this statement provides a goldmine of information about the signs of m, p, and v. you should rephrase it, on the spot, into a statement about the signs of the individual numbers. if you do, you'll often find that the statements themselves become very easy to interpret.

here's how to handle this one:
* recognize that pv < 0. this means that p and v have opposite signs.
* recognize that mv < 0. this means that m and v have opposite signs.
* based on these observations, there are only 2 possible cases:
(m) (p) (v)
(+) (+) (-) case 1
(-) (-) (+) case 2

* use the statement mv < pv.
in case 1, dividing this statement by v gives m > p (you have to flip the sign because v is negative).
in case 2, dividing this statement by v gives m < p (you don't flip the sign, because v is positive).

therefore, here's the complete listing of cases:

CASE 1: m(+) p(+) v(-), m > p
NUMBER LINE REPRESENTATION: ------v------0------p------m------


CASE 2: m(-) p(-) v(+), m < p
NUMBER LINE REPRESENTATION: ------m------p------0------v------


yes, this rephrasing takes a lot of time. however, you should realize the following fact.
IMPORTANT FACT: if a rephrasing takes a lot of time, then, once you've done that rephrasing, the statements should work out very quickly. you will not have to spend tons of time on a rephrase AND tons of time on the statements.
in other words, either (a) the rephrase will be long and involved or (b) the statements will require lots of effort to evaluate, but not both.

once you've done this rephrasing, true to the promise above, the statements are very easy to evaluate.

statement (1) means that you have case 2, so the answer is "yes".
statement (2) means that you have case 2, so the answer is "yes".
done.
answer = (d).

--

review:
TAKEAWAY: inequalities involving 0 should be treated as number properties statements about positives and negatives rather than inequalities. you should only treat them as actual inequalities if the number-properties route is an absolute dead end.

--

i understand that a lot of this is already in cramya's post above, but i'm re-posting it in a manner that's more legible (at least to me; i find all that "-ve" and "+ve" stuff really, really hard to read).
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.

--

Pueden hacerle preguntas a Ron en castellano
Potete chiedere domande a Ron in italiano
On peut poser des questions à Ron en français
Voit esittää kysymyksiä Ron:lle myös suomeksi

--

Quand on se sent bien dans un vêtement, tout peut arriver. Un bon vêtement, c'est un passeport pour le bonheur.

Yves Saint-Laurent

--

Learn more about ron

GMAT/MBA Expert

User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 3380
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:20 am
Thanked: 2256 times
Followed by:1535 members
GMAT Score:800

Re: Tips needed to save time PS/ DS

by lunarpower » Wed Nov 19, 2008 4:17 am
sabal wrote:Question 2. DS
If w+x <0, is w-y>0?
1. x+y<0
2. y<x<w
The answer is B
you should IMMEDIATELY recognize "w - y > 0" as identical to "w > y".
therefore, this question is asking you whether w is greater than y.

statement 2 then becomes quite obvious: if w is greater than x which is greater than y, then w must be greater than y. sufficient.

statement 1 takes a bit more work, but here are two ways to evaluate it:
(a) note the symmetry:
w + x < 0
y + x < 0 (rearranged)
notice that w and y are in exactly the same situation, so it's impossible to tell which of them is bigger. therefore insufficient.
(b) rearrange to isolate them:
w < -x
y < -x
all we know is that w and y are both less than the same number. this is inconclusive; we have no idea how big either of them is. therefore, insufficient.

answer (b).
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.

--

Pueden hacerle preguntas a Ron en castellano
Potete chiedere domande a Ron in italiano
On peut poser des questions à Ron en français
Voit esittää kysymyksiä Ron:lle myös suomeksi

--

Quand on se sent bien dans un vêtement, tout peut arriver. Un bon vêtement, c'est un passeport pour le bonheur.

Yves Saint-Laurent

--

Learn more about ron

Legendary Member
Posts: 940
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 3:22 am
Thanked: 55 times
Followed by:1 members

Re: Tips needed to save time PS/ DS

by iamcste » Wed Nov 19, 2008 4:20 am
lunarpower wrote:there are some signals you should learn to recognize IMMEDIATELY in these problems.
number plugging is a nice backup method, but some of the rephrases i'm going to mention are canonical; you MUST learn to recognize them.
ideally, you should reserve number plugging for problems that are at least a bit novel or unusual. for a problem such as the first one below, for instance, number plugging means a failure to recognize things that you're supposed to be able to recognize.
this doesn't mean, of course, that you shouldn't use number plugging if you don't know how to interpret the problem; you should solve problems in whatever way you can conjure. however, to repeat, if you have to use number plugging on a problem like #1, you really need to study inequalities, positive/negative number properties, and rephrasing some more.
sabal wrote:Question 1. DS
If mv < pv <0, is v>0?
1. m<p
2. m<0
The answer is D
when you see a statement such as "mv < pv < 0", you should IMMEDIATELY start thinking of CASES.
this statement provides a goldmine of information about the signs of m, p, and v. you should rephrase it, on the spot, into a statement about the signs of the individual numbers. if you do, you'll often find that the statements themselves become very easy to interpret.

here's how to handle this one:
* recognize that pv < 0. this means that p and v have opposite signs.
* recognize that mv < 0. this means that m and v have opposite signs.
* based on these observations, there are only 2 possible cases:
(m) (p) (v)
(+) (+) (-) case 1
(-) (-) (+) case 2

* use the statement mv < pv.
in case 1, dividing this statement by v gives m > p (you have to flip the sign because v is negative).
in case 2, dividing this statement by v gives m < p (you don't flip the sign, because v is positive).

therefore, here's the complete listing of cases:

CASE 1: m(+) p(+) v(-), m > p
NUMBER LINE REPRESENTATION: ------v------0------p------m------


CASE 2: m(-) p(-) v(+), m < p
NUMBER LINE REPRESENTATION: ------m------p------0------v------


yes, this rephrasing takes a lot of time. however, you should realize the following fact.
IMPORTANT FACT: if a rephrasing takes a lot of time, then, once you've done that rephrasing, the statements should work out very quickly. you will not have to spend tons of time on a rephrase AND tons of time on the statements.
in other words, either (a) the rephrase will be long and involved or (b) the statements will require lots of effort to evaluate, but not both.

once you've done this rephrasing, true to the promise above, the statements are very easy to evaluate.

statement (1) means that you have case 2, so the answer is "yes".
statement (2) means that you have case 2, so the answer is "yes".
done.
answer = (d).

--

review:
TAKEAWAY: inequalities involving 0 should be treated as number properties statements about positives and negatives rather than inequalities. you should only treat them as actual inequalities if the number-properties route is an absolute dead end.

--

i understand that a lot of this is already in cramya's post above, but i'm re-posting it in a manner that's more legible (at least to me; i find all that "-ve" and "+ve" stuff really, really hard to read).
Thanks Ron !

GMAT/MBA Expert

User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 3380
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:20 am
Thanked: 2256 times
Followed by:1535 members
GMAT Score:800

Re: Tips needed to save time PS/ DS

by lunarpower » Wed Nov 19, 2008 4:21 am
sabal wrote: Question 3. DS
Is y<(x+z)/2 ?
1. y-x<z-y
2. z-y>(z-x)/2
The Answer is d
this is a problem featuring a COMBINATION of variables (i.e., (x + z)/2). here's a takeaway regarding such problems.
if you have a problem featuring a COMBINATION of variables, then you should try to ISOLATE THAT COMBINATION in each of the statements.

in other words, we should try to manipulate each of the statements to produce the inequality that appears in the prompt question.

statement 1:
y - x < z - y
move all the y's to one side, and move everything else to the other side (because y is isolated in the prompt question):
2y < z + x
divide by 2:
y < (z + x)/2
sufficient.

statement 2:
z - y > (z - x)/2
double both sides to get rid of the fraction (note: you don't have to do this, but i just don't like fractions all that much):
2z - 2y > z - x
isolate y by subtracting 2z:
-2y > -z - x
divide by -2:
y < +z/2 + x/2
y < (z + x)/2
sufficient.

answer (d).
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.

--

Pueden hacerle preguntas a Ron en castellano
Potete chiedere domande a Ron in italiano
On peut poser des questions à Ron en français
Voit esittää kysymyksiä Ron:lle myös suomeksi

--

Quand on se sent bien dans un vêtement, tout peut arriver. Un bon vêtement, c'est un passeport pour le bonheur.

Yves Saint-Laurent

--

Learn more about ron

Legendary Member
Posts: 2467
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:14 pm
Thanked: 331 times
Followed by:11 members

by cramya » Wed Nov 19, 2008 6:32 am
Thanks Ron!

Going forward I will try to type positive instead of +ve and same for -ve also
:-)

GMAT/MBA Expert

User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 3380
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:20 am
Thanked: 2256 times
Followed by:1535 members
GMAT Score:800

by lunarpower » Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:22 pm
cramya wrote:Thanks Ron!

Going forward I will try to type positive instead of +ve and same for -ve also
:-)
ok, nice.
note that it was especially bad in this problem because (a) there are so many of them, and (b) there's actually a variable called "v", so "+ve" looks as though it contains that variable.

if you want to abbreviate, you could just type (+) or (-), as i did above. not only shorter, but much easier to read.
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.

--

Pueden hacerle preguntas a Ron en castellano
Potete chiedere domande a Ron in italiano
On peut poser des questions à Ron en français
Voit esittää kysymyksiä Ron:lle myös suomeksi

--

Quand on se sent bien dans un vêtement, tout peut arriver. Un bon vêtement, c'est un passeport pour le bonheur.

Yves Saint-Laurent

--

Learn more about ron

Legendary Member
Posts: 2467
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:14 pm
Thanked: 331 times
Followed by:11 members

by cramya » Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:30 pm
Ron,

Will do!

On a different subject, would you be kind enough to look at this post also?

https://www.beatthegmat.com/absolute-value-t23129.html

Regards,
Cramya