First Trenches

Expert replies

goelmohit2002: Legendary Member; Posts: 1799; Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:03 amFollowed by: 2 members; Thanked: 36 times

by goelmohit2002 » Mon Jul 06, 2009 7:59 am

Hi All,

In the below question, the OA is E. I was able to narrow down to A and E. But could not decide which one is better ? Can some one please help ?

============================================
The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia, in what is now southern Iraq.

A. that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but

B. that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously with but also

C. having been cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously but

D. cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence of centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arising simultaneously but also

E. cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but

Like this post

Source: Beat The GMAT — Sentence Correction | Mon Jul 06, 2009 7:59 am

El Cucu: Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts; Posts: 236; Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2008 9:16 am; Thanked: 9 times

Re: First Trenches

by El Cucu » Mon Jul 06, 2009 12:51 pm

goelmohit2002 wrote:Hi All,

In the below question, the OA is E. I was able to narrow down to A and E. But could not decide which one is better ? Can some one please help ?

============================================
The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia, in what is now southern Iraq.

A. that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but

B. that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously with but also

C. having been cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously but

D. cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence of centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arising simultaneously but also

E. cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but

Evidence for societies that were arising or evidence that societies arose? I think the former is awkward.

Like this post

dumb.doofus: Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts; Posts: 435; Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 2:02 pmFollowed by: 1 member; Location: San Jose, CA; Thanked: 43 times; GMAT Score:720

by dumb.doofus » Mon Jul 06, 2009 4:56 pm

3:2 split again.. yields vs have yielded.. We can strike out B and D.. a present perfect is required here as we are pointing to an action that happened at an unspecified time before now..

also we can strike out A and C for multiple reasons..

a] that were is redundant.. arising is incorrect.. need simple past..

c] having been and arising is incorrect.. simple past is required..

Option left is E

One love, one blood, one life. You got to do what you should.
https://dreambigdreamhigh.blocked/
https://gmattoughies.blocked/

Like this post

goelmohit2002: Legendary Member; Posts: 1799; Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:03 amFollowed by: 2 members; Thanked: 36 times

by goelmohit2002 » Sat Sep 05, 2009 12:18 pm

The above is OG-12 Q#68...for kicking out C...OG says "having been cut...." is unnecessarily wordy....can someone please tell why the same is wordy....why the same cannot be kicked out on the basis of wrong tense....i.e. "having been" it says that activity was already completed before some other activity started....

Please tell what i am missing here ?

Like this post

kyabe: Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts; Posts: 82; Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:03 amFollowed by: 1 member; Thanked: 2 times

by kyabe » Sat Sep 05, 2009 12:26 pm

goelmohit2002 wrote:The above is OG-12 Q#68...for kicking out C...OG says "having been cut...." is unnecessarily wordy....can someone please tell why the same is wordy....why the same cannot be kicked out on the basis of wrong tense....i.e. "having been" it says that activity was already completed before some other activity started....

Please tell what i am missing here ?

As far as i am concerned it is more of a tense issue rather than just wordy.. Because "having been cut" conveys that the cutting is going on ...

Like this post

goelmohit2002: Legendary Member; Posts: 1799; Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:03 amFollowed by: 2 members; Thanked: 36 times

by goelmohit2002 » Sat Sep 05, 2009 12:31 pm

kyabe wrote:
goelmohit2002 wrote:The above is OG-12 Q#68...for kicking out C...OG says "having been cut...." is unnecessarily wordy....can someone please tell why the same is wordy....why the same cannot be kicked out on the basis of wrong tense....i.e. "having been" it says that activity was already completed before some other activity started....

Please tell what i am missing here ?
As far as i am concerned it is more of a tense issue rather than just wordy.. Because "having been cut" conveys that the cutting is going on ...

Hi Kyabe,

i guess...having been says activity completed.....

can you please tell what is the difference between
a) first trenches "having cut" blah blah
b) first trenches "having been cut" blah blah

please tell if any one of the above or both are wrong gramatically as per GMAT.

Like this post

scoobydooby: Legendary Member; Posts: 1035; Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:56 pmFollowed by: 1 member; Thanked: 104 times

by scoobydooby » Sat Sep 05, 2009 12:38 pm

yes "having been" denotes a completed activity. it shows "y happened after x happened"

for eg: having been denied a promotion, the worker resigned (resignation after the denial)

so, the trenches after being cut, provided a strong evidence= makes sense but is too wordy

a) first trenches "having cut" => the trenches cut something by themselves. active voice. makes no sense

b) first trenches "having been cut" => the trenches were cut. passive voice. ok

Last edited by scoobydooby on Sat Sep 05, 2009 1:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Like this post

goelmohit2002: Legendary Member; Posts: 1799; Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:03 amFollowed by: 2 members; Thanked: 36 times

by goelmohit2002 » Sat Sep 05, 2009 12:43 pm

scoobydooby wrote:yes "having been" denotes a completed activity. it shows because of x, y happened.

for eg: having been denied a promotion, the worker resigned (gives the reason for the workers resignation)

here, just by virtue of having been cut, the trenches couldnt provide a strong evidence. so it is awkward.

a) first trenches "having cut" => the trenches cut something by themselves. active voice. makes no sense

b) first trenches "having been cut" => the trenches were cut. passive voice

Thanks Scooby.

I guess....our way of kicking out based on completed tense looks to be better than OG way of wordiness...

what you guys think...of there is something that I am missing here...that additionally OG want to say ?

Like this post

scoobydooby: Legendary Member; Posts: 1035; Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:56 pmFollowed by: 1 member; Thanked: 104 times

by scoobydooby » Sat Sep 05, 2009 12:46 pm

goelmohit2002 wrote:
scoobydooby wrote:yes "having been" denotes a completed activity. it shows because of x, y happened.

for eg: having been denied a promotion, the worker resigned (gives the reason for the workers resignation)

here, just by virtue of having been cut, the trenches couldnt provide a strong evidence. so it is awkward.

a) first trenches "having cut" => the trenches cut something by themselves. active voice. makes no sense

b) first trenches "having been cut" => the trenches were cut. passive voice
Thanks Scooby.

I guess....our way of kicking out based on completed tense looks to be better than OG way of wordiness...

what you guys think...of there is something that I am missing here...that additionally OG want to say ?

no, just edited my previous post. og explanation is correct. "having been" is not wrong in terms of tense or logic. its just not as concise as E

Like this post

goelmohit2002: Legendary Member; Posts: 1799; Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:03 amFollowed by: 2 members; Thanked: 36 times

by goelmohit2002 » Sat Sep 05, 2009 12:55 pm

Thanks Scooby.

For kicking out A...OG says:

"that were .....that were arising" is wordy....

can you please tell why the same is wordy and how to find out the same that it is wordy....?

Like this post

scoobydooby: Legendary Member; Posts: 1035; Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:56 pmFollowed by: 1 member; Thanked: 104 times

by scoobydooby » Sat Sep 05, 2009 1:28 pm

1) "trenches that were cut into x" is wordier than
"trenches, cut into x"

2) "regions....were arising simultaneously but independently" is wordier than "regions ....rose simultaneously". also the past continuous tense is not needed here. simple past tense explains the meaning just as well.

Like this post

GMAT/MBA Expert

Stacey Koprince: GMAT Instructor; Posts: 2228; Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 3:28 pmFollowed by: 694 members; Location: Montreal, Canada; Thanked: 639 times; GMAT Score:780

by Stacey Koprince » Wed Oct 07, 2009 2:45 pm

Received a PM asking me to reply. Scooby's got it. In general, we default to simple tenses unless we have to use a more complex tense. And we prefer less wordy if we have that option. E gives us both of those things, so E is better than A.

Please note: I do not use the Private Messaging system! I will not see any PMs that you send to me!!

Stacey Koprince
GMAT Instructor
Director of Online Community
Manhattan GMAT

Contributor to Beat The GMAT!

Learn more about me

Like this post

Post new topic Locked

• Page 1 of 1

GMAT Course Reviews

559 reviews

1168 reviews

431 reviews

359 reviews

147 reviews

5/5

5 Star (560 Reviews)

"Target Test Prep is the closest to the official version of the GMAT exam, about 99% accuracy in terms of the quality and quantity of information. The course has excellently created singular sets of focused lessons and tests for every possible topic that one could come across in the official GMAT exam."

"The TTP course maximizes the efficiency of the time you spend studying. It will take time and effort but I could almost guarantee that if you complete the course exactly as it is laid out you will get an amazing score. They also have a very responsive team willing to help with any questions you might have."

"TTP has two things that I think no other test prep company offers: A teaching approach that reinforces understanding and an attitude that will give you the mental preparedness needed to succeed on the test. TTP gives you a deep understanding of the concept you need to know while teaching you how to think."

Write a Review