Correct placement of prepositional phrases

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by lunarpower » Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:17 am
mundasingh123 wrote:
lunarpower wrote:
mundasingh123 wrote:
2)What does a participial modifier that begins a sentence modify ? action / noun?
what kind of participle?
sorry ron,I should have clarified this
A beginning present participle or a past participle
A present participle
swimming with swift strokes,John crossed over to the other side of the pool.

Who is taking advantage?John.so is "swimming with swift strokes" modifying John
In what manner did he cross ? swimming with swift strokes.So is "swimming with swift strokes" modifying action "crossed"

A past participle:
Compelled by the majority of the oppositional party,the senator decided to support the motion.
Here who is compelled ? John
But cant "Compelled by the majority" also modify "decided to support" as "compelled" describes the reason behind the decision to support.
Thanks ,Ron
basically, it's both -- in order for one of these modifiers to be used correctly, you have to satisfy both of these criteria.

for a PRESENT PARTICIPLE beforehand...
1) the FOLLOWING SUBJECT should be the AGENT OF THE -ING ACTION
AND
2) the FOLLOWING ACTION should be SIMULTANEOUS WITH, and MORE IMPORTANT THAN, the -ING action.

as an illustration of point #2:
using a geiger counter, scientists can determine the intensity of radiation from a radioactive object. --> MAKES SENSE
determining the intensity of radiation from a radioactive object, scientists can use a geiger counter. --> DOESN'T MAKE SENSE
... because the most important thing here is the fact that scientists can determine the intensity of radiation; the fact that they do so using a geiger counter is a subordinate (less important) fact.

--

for a PAST PARTICIPLE beforehand...
1) the FOLLOWING SUBJECT should be DESCRIBED BY THE PAST PARTICIPLE
AND
2) the FOLLOWING ACTION should be AFFECTED BY the action described by the past participle.

to illustrate point #2:
exhausted from a long day, martin had trouble concentrating on his studying. --> MAKES SENSE
exhausted from a long day, martin wore a red shirt --> DOESN'T MAKE SENSE
... because there is no way that being exhausted has any sort of bearing on the color of martin's shirt.
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by mundasingh123 » Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:13 am
THANKS RON,THIS WAS really important stuff.

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by pharmxanthan » Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:52 am
Thanks Ron!

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by mundasingh123 » Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:49 am
Ron ,You said
the long answer is:
if a sentence STARTS with a prepositional phrase followed by a comma, then that prepositional phrase will pretty much always modify the CLAUSE/ACTION that follows.

so, in the sentence above, "in two letters to the historian tacitus" modifies the following action ("...wrote the only eyewitness account..."). that makes perfect sense.

i'm sure this is a hard rule, since i can't currently think of any examples to the contrary (i.e., i can't think of any examples in which prepositional phrase + comma refers to the following noun).
But here is an example given in the lesson on MGMAT Modifier Strategy gives an example in which
the opening prepositional phrase modifies the noun after the comma.

MGMAT SC Guide 4th Ed. Page 84, Noun Modifiers :Preposition
On the couch,the cat took a nap.

The opening phrase modifies the cat

However there is an example giving in Verb Modifiers section as well talks of how an opening preposition could modify the verb after the comma. Then in that case the following is not correct

if a sentence STARTS with a prepositional phrase followed by a comma, then that prepositional phrase will pretty much always modify the CLAUSE/ACTION that follows.
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by lunarpower » Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:31 am
mundasingh123 wrote:MGMAT SC Guide 4th Ed. Page 84, Noun Modifiers :Preposition
On the couch,the cat took a nap.

The opening phrase modifies the cat
that's a mistake; i've submitted it for inclusion in the errata list. if you see a prepositional phrase + comma + sentence, then you can be confident that the prepositional phrase is an adverbial modifier.

so, the sentences given there actually have two different meanings:

the cat on the couch took a nap --> in this sentence, the prepositional phrase is genuinely a noun modifier. i.e., there is more than one cat, and so the sentence is specifically identifying the one that is/was on the couch.

on the couch, the cat took a nap --> the prepositional phrase in this sentence is an adverbial modifier; the sentence is describing what happened on the couch. in this sentence, either there is only one cat or we already know which cat the sentence is talking about.

thanks for catching that.
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by mundasingh123 » Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:57 pm
Hi R
Image courtest Kaplan Verbal WB
on, going by what you said about how both an opening -prepositional phrase and an ending prepositional phrase modify the verb , both option A and C in the SC (Please find snapshot ) must be correct . But Kaplan says C is correct
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by lunarpower » Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:07 pm
mundasingh123 wrote:Hi R
Image courtest Kaplan Verbal WB
on, going by what you said about how both an opening -prepositional phrase and an ending prepositional phrase modify the verb , both option A and C in the SC (Please find snapshot ) must be correct . But Kaplan says C is correct
you can't break up the idiom "determined by".
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by tanviet » Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:09 pm
This is advanced questions which appeared at the end of the test and so at the end of og books.

Stacey already write an article for this question-"breakdown gmatprep long sc problem"

in this problem, a chunk " in the two letters" is moved around /is placed in many positions in the sentence.

the attack mode is: realize the chuck moved around and realize which word-noun/verb the chuck moved around modify and find out the most logic placement of the chuck moved around. The chuck moved here is " in the 2 letters" the word modified is "write". The logic placement is chuck moved is close to "write" and E is correct.

Though the mode of attack is nice but I still feel hard to apply the mode. Anyone has any method to attack this kind of question. Dose reading all 5 choices and realizing the best one before applying the above mode is a good way?

experts, please, help us with this.

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by tanviet » Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:49 pm
lunarpower wrote:
mundasingh123 wrote:
lunarpower wrote:
mundasingh123 wrote:

basically, it's both -- in order for one of these modifiers to be used correctly, you have to satisfy both of these criteria.

for a PRESENT PARTICIPLE beforehand...
1) the FOLLOWING SUBJECT should be the AGENT OF THE -ING ACTION
AND
2) the FOLLOWING ACTION should be SIMULTANEOUS WITH, and MORE IMPORTANT THAN, the -ING action.

as an illustration of point #2:
using a geiger counter, scientists can determine the intensity of radiation from a radioactive object. --> MAKES SENSE
determining the intensity of radiation from a radioactive object, scientists can use a geiger counter. --> DOESN'T MAKE SENSE
... because the most important thing here is the fact that scientists can determine the intensity of radiation; the fact that they do so using a geiger counter is a subordinate (less important) fact.

--

for a PAST PARTICIPLE beforehand...
1) the FOLLOWING SUBJECT should be DESCRIBED BY THE PAST PARTICIPLE
AND
2) the FOLLOWING ACTION should be AFFECTED BY the action described by the past participle.

to illustrate point #2:
exhausted from a long day, martin had trouble concentrating on his studying. --> MAKES SENSE
texhausted from a long day, martin wore a red shir --> DOESN'T MAKE SENSE
... because there is no way that being exhausted has any sort of bearing on the color of martin's shirt.
THANK YOU RON, I WISH TO YOU TO COMMENT

exhausted from a long day, martin wore a red

I think this is correct and "exhausted" here is adjective . we do not need the meaning relation of "exhausted" with the main verb.

determining the intensity of radiation from a radioactive object, scientists can use a geiger counter

this is incorrect because the action of doing happen before and then simultaneous with the action of main clause not because the importance level is considered. importance level is hard to see.

Please, give your idea on this.

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by tanviet » Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:04 pm
Ron, can I summarize as following, please, modify. I wish to have a short rule for us.

DOING COMMA IS A ADVERBIAL AND POSITION OF DOING COMMA MUST BE LOGIC WITH THE NOUN AS SUBJECT OF FOLLOWING CLAUSE. DOING COMMA CAN BE AT THE END OF THE CLAUSE.

DOING TOUCHING A NOUN IS AN ADJECTIVAL OF COURSE.

PREPOSITIONAL PHRASE COMMA IS AN ADVERBIAL. PREPOSITIONAL PHRASE TOUCHING THE NOUN CAN BE ADVERBIAL OR ADJECTIVAL

ED PHRASE COMMA CAN BE ADVERBIAL OR ADJECTIVAL
ED PHRASE TOUCHING THE NOUN IS ADJECTIVAL

Ron, I wish you to change, modify so that we can have a concise, deep and comprehensive rule for these kinds of phrases.

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by lunarpower » Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:54 am
duongthang wrote:THANK YOU RON, I WISH TO YOU TO COMMENT

exhausted from a long day, martin wore a red

I think this is correct and "exhausted" here is adjective . we do not need the meaning relation of "exhausted" with the main verb.

determining the intensity of radiation from a radioactive object, scientists can use a geiger counter

this is incorrect because the action of doing happen before and then simultaneous with the action of main clause not because the importance level is considered. importance level is hard to see.

Please, give your idea on this.
my "idea on this" would just be a repetition of what i wrote above.

the sentence about martin is not correct; that sort of initial modifier must actually be related to the content of the sentence.

as far as the other thing, that is indeed about importance levels. the main idea is not "before and during" (although that is often, but certainly not always, the case in such sentences); rather, the main idea is that the -ING action is considered background, and that the verb is considered the main focus of the sentence.

in fact, there are some such sentences that can be written in either direction, depending on the writer's intention. for instance:
Making a gesture that native Uruguayans would interpret as obscene, James tried to signal to the waiter that the food was OK.
--> correct, *if* the writer's main intention is to point out james's (mistaken) intentions.
Trying to signal to the waiter that the food was OK, James made a gesture that native Uruguayans would interpret as obscene.
--> correct, *if* the writer's main intention is to point out that uruguayans would be offended by the gesture.

clearly, "before and during" is not an issue here; both sentences are describing exactly the same event. the difference is one of emphasis only.

(in fact, if the scientists were really, really excited about getting to use their shiny new geiger counter, the wrong version of the above sentence would become completely correct -- but that's clearly not the intended meaning.)
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by lunarpower » Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:05 am
duongthang wrote:Ron, can I summarize as following, please, modify. I wish to have a short rule for us.

DOING COMMA IS A ADVERBIAL AND POSITION OF DOING COMMA MUST BE LOGIC WITH THE NOUN AS SUBJECT OF FOLLOWING CLAUSE. DOING COMMA CAN BE AT THE END OF THE CLAUSE.

DOING TOUCHING A NOUN IS AN ADJECTIVAL OF COURSE.

PREPOSITIONAL PHRASE COMMA IS AN ADVERBIAL. PREPOSITIONAL PHRASE TOUCHING THE NOUN CAN BE ADVERBIAL OR ADJECTIVAL

ED PHRASE COMMA CAN BE ADVERBIAL OR ADJECTIVAL
ED PHRASE TOUCHING THE NOUN IS ADJECTIVAL

Ron, I wish you to change, modify so that we can have a concise, deep and comprehensive rule for these kinds of phrases.
this seems legit. the only thing that i would add is the fact that, if "comma + -ING" follows only a noun, then it modifies that noun (i.e., it's adjectival). however, it still must be related to the matter of the sentence in general.

for instance:
Joe, breathing hard, crossed the finish line.
--> "breathing hard" modifies "joe". also, the proper relationship is there (joe is breathing hard because he's running).
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