BREAKING: Target Test Prep releases Brand New 2026 On Demand GMAT prep course

Redeem

than and than those

This topic has expert replies
Post new topic Locked
Previous Topic Next Topic
Legendary Member
Posts: 510
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2014 2:24 am
Thanked: 3 times
Followed by:5 members

than and than those

by j_shreyans » Wed May 06, 2015 9:16 am
Jan Micker's 1652 masterwork Bird's Eye View of Amsterdam, which had been painted long before such a vantage point became possible, features spatial relationships that are more subtle and intricate than in most other seventeenth-century Dutch paintings.


A) which had been painted long before such a vantage point became possible, features spatial relationships that are more subtle and intricate than in

B) painted by the artist long before such a vantage point was to become possible, and featuring spatial relationships that are more subtle and intricate than those in

C) which the artist painted long before the possibility of such a vantage point, featuring spatial relationships that are more subtle and intricate than the ones in

D) painted long before the possibility of such a vantage point, with spatial relationships that are more subtle and intricate than the ones in

E) painted long before such a vantage point became possible, features spatial relationships that are more subtle and intricate than those in

Can you please explain why D is wrong and why E is right?

In short when should we use than and than those.
Top
Source: — Sentence Correction |
User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 15539
Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 12:04 pm
Location: New York, NY
Thanked: 13060 times
Followed by:1906 members
GMAT Score:790

by GMATGuruNY » Thu May 07, 2015 8:12 am
j_shreyans wrote:Jan Micker's 1652 masterwork Bird's Eye View of Amsterdam, which had been painted long before such a vantage point became possible, features spatial relationships that are more subtle and intricate than in most other seventeenth-century Dutch paintings.


A) which had been painted long before such a vantage point became possible, features spatial relationships that are more subtle and intricate than in

B) painted by the artist long before such a vantage point was to become possible, and featuring spatial relationships that are more subtle and intricate than those in

C) which the artist painted long before the possibility of such a vantage point, featuring spatial relationships that are more subtle and intricate than the ones in

D) painted long before the possibility of such a vantage point, with spatial relationships that are more subtle and intricate than the ones in

E) painted long before such a vantage point became possible, features spatial relationships that are more subtle and intricate than those in
A: spatial relationships that are more subtle and intricate than in most other seventeenth-century Dutch paintings.
Here, the intent is to compare TWO DIFFERENT COPIES of spatial relationships.
Copy 1: the spatial relationships in Jan Micker's masterwork
Copy 2: the spatial relationships in most other 17th century Dutch paintings.
To compare two different copies of something, the second copy should be represented by a COPY PRONOUN:
that for a singular copy, those for a plural copy.
Correct:
spatial relationships that are more subtle and intricate than THOSE in most other seventeenth-century Dutch paintings.
Eliminate A.

In B, C and D, Jan Micker's 1652 masterwork Bird's Eye View of Amsterdam (subject) lacks a verb.
Eliminate B, C and D.

The correct answer is E.
Private tutor exclusively for the GMAT and GRE, with over 20 years of experience.
Followed here and elsewhere by over 1900 test-takers.
I have worked with students based in the US, Australia, Taiwan, China, Tajikistan, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia -- a long list of countries.
My students have been admitted to HBS, CBS, Tuck, Yale, Stern, Fuqua -- a long list of top programs.

As a tutor, I don't simply teach you how I would approach problems.
I unlock the best way for YOU to solve problems.

For more information, please email me (Mitch Hunt) at [email protected].
Student Review #1
Student Review #2
Student Review #3
Top
Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts
Posts: 193
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 5:14 am
Thanked: 6 times
Followed by:1 members

by iongmat » Thu May 07, 2015 10:28 am
GMATGuruNY wrote: A: spatial relationships that are more subtle and intricate than in most other seventeenth-century Dutch paintings.
Here, the intent is to compare TWO DIFFERENT COPIES of spatial relationships.
Copy 1: the spatial relationships in Jan Micker's masterwork
Copy 2: the spatial relationships in most other 17th century Dutch paintings.
To compare two different copies of something, the second copy should be represented by a COPY PRONOUN:
that for a singular copy, those for a plural copy.
Hello GMATGuruNY, this aspect has always confused me. So, from your post, my understanding is that if we don't use that/those, it would mean that the "same" spatial relationship is being compared and so, it does not make sense.

So, then why is the following correct:

Certain pesticides can become ineffective if used repeatedly in the same place; one reason is suggested by the finding that there are much larger populations of presticide-degrading microbes in soils with a relatively long history of pesticide use than in soils that are free of such chemicals.

Should it not mean that the "same" populations are being compared? It should have been:

Certain pesticides can become ineffective if used repeatedly in the same place; one reason is suggested by the finding that there are much larger populations of presticide-degrading microbes in soils with a relatively long history of pesticide use than those in soils that are free of such chemicals.

Your explanation would help clear the doubt.
Top

GMAT/MBA Expert

User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 2095
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:22 pm
Thanked: 1443 times
Followed by:247 members

by ceilidh.erickson » Thu May 07, 2015 2:11 pm
The fundamental question when deciding to use "that/those" is: what do we mean to compare? And what are we actually comparing?

In the original example, we want to compare "spacial relationship in Micker's painting" to "spacial relationships in most other seventeenth-century Dutch paintings." As Mitch said, we need "those of" to complete this comparison of spacial relationship to spacial relationship.

We also have to remember that comparisons need parallel structure as well as parallel meaning. It would be arguably correct to say "there are better spacial relationships in painting X than in painting Y." This wouldn't imply that the spacial relationships are the same. The difference is that structurally we're comparing prepositional phrases here: "in painting X" vs. "in painting Y." In the original, we were comparing nouns: "spacial relationships that are more subtle than..." The only thing that can follow is another noun.

So, in your example, "there are larger populations in X than in Y," we are once again comparing prepositional phrases. If we changed it to "there are larger populations in X than those in Y," "those" is unnecessary.

Does that answer your question?
Ceilidh Erickson
EdM in Mind, Brain, and Education
Harvard Graduate School of Education
Top
Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts
Posts: 193
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 5:14 am
Thanked: 6 times
Followed by:1 members

by iongmat » Thu May 07, 2015 10:01 pm
ceilidh.erickson wrote:"there are better spacial relationships in painting X than in painting Y." This wouldn't imply that the spacial relationships are the same.
Hi ceilidh, I read GMATGuruNY's post many more time and I do feel that he meant to convey that the above sentence would mean the spacial relationships are the "same", and hence he suggested that we should use "those".
Top
User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 15539
Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 12:04 pm
Location: New York, NY
Thanked: 13060 times
Followed by:1906 members
GMAT Score:790

by GMATGuruNY » Fri May 08, 2015 5:22 am
iongmat wrote:
GMATGuruNY wrote: A: spatial relationships that are more subtle and intricate than in most other seventeenth-century Dutch paintings.
Here, the intent is to compare TWO DIFFERENT COPIES of spatial relationships.
Copy 1: the spatial relationships in Jan Micker's masterwork
Copy 2: the spatial relationships in most other 17th century Dutch paintings.
To compare two different copies of something, the second copy should be represented by a COPY PRONOUN:
that for a singular copy, those for a plural copy.
Hello GMATGuruNY, this aspect has always confused me. So, from your post, my understanding is that if we don't use that/those, it would mean that the "same" spatial relationship is being compared and so, it does not make sense.

So, then why is the following correct:

Certain pesticides can become ineffective if used repeatedly in the same place; one reason is suggested by the finding that there are much larger populations of presticide-degrading microbes in soils with a relatively long history of pesticide use than in soils that are free of such chemicals.

Should it not mean that the "same" populations are being compared? It should have been:

Certain pesticides can become ineffective if used repeatedly in the same place; one reason is suggested by the finding that there are much larger populations of presticide-degrading microbes in soils with a relatively long history of pesticide use than those in soils that are free of such chemicals.

Your explanation would help clear the doubt.
Where a modifier is placed affects meaning.

If a prepositional modifier such as in soils is attached to the SUBJECT of a comparison, a copy pronoun is required.
POPULATIONS IN SOILS with a relatively long history of pesticide use are larger than THOSE IN SOILS that are free of such chemicals.
Here, in soils is attached to populations (subject).
As a result, the first subject refers to ONE SET OF POPULATIONS (populations in soils with a relatively long history of pesticide use), while the second subject refers to a DIFFERENT SET OF POPULATIONS (populations in soils that are free of such chemicals).
For this reason, a COPY PRONOUN is required to represent the second set of populations.

If a prepositional modifier such as in soils follows the VERB in a comparison, a copy pronoun is NOT required.
There are much larger populations in soils with a relatively long history of pesticide use than in soils that are free of such chemicals.
Here, in soils follows the verb are, implying the following comparison:
Much larger populations ARE IN SOILS with a relatively long history of pesticide use than ARE IN SOILS that are free of such chemicals.
Here, in soils is NOT attached to populations (subject).
As a result, the subject populations refers NOT to a specific set of populations but to populations IN GENERAL.
For this reason, no copy pronoun is required.
Last edited by GMATGuruNY on Sat Feb 06, 2016 4:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
Private tutor exclusively for the GMAT and GRE, with over 20 years of experience.
Followed here and elsewhere by over 1900 test-takers.
I have worked with students based in the US, Australia, Taiwan, China, Tajikistan, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia -- a long list of countries.
My students have been admitted to HBS, CBS, Tuck, Yale, Stern, Fuqua -- a long list of top programs.

As a tutor, I don't simply teach you how I would approach problems.
I unlock the best way for YOU to solve problems.

For more information, please email me (Mitch Hunt) at [email protected].
Student Review #1
Student Review #2
Student Review #3
Top
Legendary Member
Posts: 510
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2014 2:24 am
Thanked: 3 times
Followed by:5 members

by j_shreyans » Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:16 am
Hi GMATGuru ,

The above explanation is always true in GMAT or is there any condition?

Please advise.

Thanks...
Top
Legendary Member
Posts: 944
Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:21 am
Thanked: 8 times
Followed by:5 members

by RBBmba@2014 » Thu Feb 04, 2016 11:21 am
GMATGuruNY wrote: Where a modifier is placed affects meaning.

If a prepositional modifier such as in soils is attached to the SUBJECT of a comparison, a copy pronoun is required.
POPULATION IN SOILS with a relatively long history of pesticide use are larger than THOSE IN SOILS that are free of such chemicals.
Here, in soils is attached to populations (subject).
As a result, the first subject refers to ONE SET OF POPULATIONS (populations in soils with a relatively long history of pesticide use), while the second subject refers to a DIFFERENT SET OF POPULATIONS (populations in soils that are free of such chemicals).
For this reason, a COPY PRONOUN is required to represent the second set of populations.

If a prepositional modifier such as in soils follows the VERB in a comparison, a copy pronoun is NOT required.
There are much larger populations in soils with a relatively long history of pesticide use than in soils that are free of such chemicals.
Here, in soils follows the verb are, implying the following comparison:
Much larger populations ARE IN SOILS with a relatively long history of pesticide use than ARE IN SOILS that are free of such chemicals.
Here, in soils is NOT attached to populations (subject).
As a result, the subject populations refers NOT to a specific set of populations but to populations IN GENERAL.
For this reason, no copy pronoun is required.
Hi Mitch - Is it ALWAYS TRUE in GMAT ? I mean, is the above DISTINCTION ALWAYS followed on GMAT ?

Curious to hear your thoughts...Much thanks in advance!
Top
User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 15539
Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 12:04 pm
Location: New York, NY
Thanked: 13060 times
Followed by:1906 members
GMAT Score:790

by GMATGuruNY » Sat Feb 06, 2016 4:13 am
RBBmba@2014 wrote:
GMATGuruNY wrote: Where a modifier is placed affects meaning.

If a prepositional modifier such as in soils is attached to the SUBJECT of a comparison, a copy pronoun is required.
POPULATIONS IN SOILS with a relatively long history of pesticide use are larger than THOSE IN SOILS that are free of such chemicals.
Here, in soils is attached to populations (subject).
As a result, the first subject refers to ONE SET OF POPULATIONS (populations in soils with a relatively long history of pesticide use), while the second subject refers to a DIFFERENT SET OF POPULATIONS (populations in soils that are free of such chemicals).
For this reason, a COPY PRONOUN is required to represent the second set of populations.

If a prepositional modifier such as in soils follows the VERB in a comparison, a copy pronoun is NOT required.
There are much larger populations in soils with a relatively long history of pesticide use than in soils that are free of such chemicals.
Here, in soils follows the verb are, implying the following comparison:
Much larger populations ARE IN SOILS with a relatively long history of pesticide use than ARE IN SOILS that are free of such chemicals.
Here, in soils is NOT attached to populations (subject).
As a result, the subject populations refers NOT to a specific set of populations but to populations IN GENERAL.
For this reason, no copy pronoun is required.
Hi Mitch - Is it ALWAYS TRUE in GMAT ? I mean, is the above DISTINCTION ALWAYS followed on GMAT ?

Curious to hear your thoughts...Much thanks in advance!
An exception:
If the second clause refers to SAME ENTITY as the first clause, then a copy pronoun is not required.
Sales of the drug were higher in the United States than in Canada.
Implied comparison:
Sales of the drug were higher in the United States than [were sales of the drug] in Canada.
Here, a prepositional phrase (of the drug) is attached to the subject (sales), but no copy pronoun is required because both clauses refer to the same statistic:
SALES OF THE DRUG.

If a modifier is attached to the subject in the first clause, apply the following rule.

If the modifier may be repeated in the second clause with no error in meaning, a copy pronoun is not required in the second clause.
Sales of the drug were higher in the United States than in Canada.
Here, the modifier attached to the subject of the first clause -- of the drug -- may be repeated in the second clause with no error in meaning:
Sales of the drug were higher in the United States than were sales of the drug in Canada.
This sentence is sensical.

If the modifier may NOT be repeated in the second clause, then a copy pronoun is required in the second clause:
Sales in the United States were higher than in Canada.
Here, the modifier attached to the subject of the first clause -- in the United States -- may NOT be repeated in the second clause:
Sales in the United States were higher than were sales in the United States in Canada.
This sentence is nonsensical.
To convey a sensical comparison, a copy pronoun is required:
Sales in the United States were higher than THOSE in Canada.
Private tutor exclusively for the GMAT and GRE, with over 20 years of experience.
Followed here and elsewhere by over 1900 test-takers.
I have worked with students based in the US, Australia, Taiwan, China, Tajikistan, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia -- a long list of countries.
My students have been admitted to HBS, CBS, Tuck, Yale, Stern, Fuqua -- a long list of top programs.

As a tutor, I don't simply teach you how I would approach problems.
I unlock the best way for YOU to solve problems.

For more information, please email me (Mitch Hunt) at [email protected].
Student Review #1
Student Review #2
Student Review #3
Top
Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts
Posts: 132
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2016 2:52 pm
Thanked: 4 times
Followed by:1 members

by aflaam » Sat Feb 06, 2016 12:55 pm
Hello Mitch,
Jan Micker's 1652 masterwork Bird's Eye View of Amsterdam,which had been painted long before such a vantage point became possible , features spatial relationships that are more subtle and intricate than[spatial relationships] in most other seventeenth-century Dutch paintings.

Isn't ellipsis perfect in A?
Moreover, is which had been uncalled for compared to painted long before in E?

thanks
Top
User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 15539
Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 12:04 pm
Location: New York, NY
Thanked: 13060 times
Followed by:1906 members
GMAT Score:790

by GMATGuruNY » Sat Feb 06, 2016 2:58 pm
aflaam wrote:Hello Mitch,
Jan Micker's 1652 masterwork Bird's Eye View of Amsterdam, which had been painted long before such a vantage point became possible, features spatial relationships that are more subtle and intricate than[spatial relationships] in most other seventeenth-century Dutch paintings.

Isn't ellipsis perfect in A?
Pay attention to meaning.
As I suggested in my initial response, the words in red refer NOT to the spatial relationships IN GENERAL but to a SPECIFIC SET of spatial relationships:
the spatial relationships featured in Jan Micker's 1652 masterwork "Bird's Eye View of Amsterdam."
As a result, A implies the following comparison:
The spatial relationships featured in Jan Micker's 1652 masterwork "Bird's Eye View of Amsterdam" are more subtle and intricate than are the spatial relationships featured in Jan Micker's 1652 masterwork "Bird's Eye View of Amsterdam" in most other seventeenth-century Dutch paintings.
This comparison is illogical.
Moreover, is which had been uncalled for compared to painted long before in E?
This line of reasoning is valid.
In A, which had been can be omitted without no loss of meaning.
Since the OA conveys the intended meaning more concisely, the OA is better than A.
Private tutor exclusively for the GMAT and GRE, with over 20 years of experience.
Followed here and elsewhere by over 1900 test-takers.
I have worked with students based in the US, Australia, Taiwan, China, Tajikistan, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia -- a long list of countries.
My students have been admitted to HBS, CBS, Tuck, Yale, Stern, Fuqua -- a long list of top programs.

As a tutor, I don't simply teach you how I would approach problems.
I unlock the best way for YOU to solve problems.

For more information, please email me (Mitch Hunt) at [email protected].
Student Review #1
Student Review #2
Student Review #3
Top
Legendary Member
Posts: 944
Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:21 am
Thanked: 8 times
Followed by:5 members

by RBBmba@2014 » Sun Feb 07, 2016 1:43 pm
GMATGuruNY wrote: If a prepositional modifier such as in soils follows the VERB in a comparison, a copy pronoun is NOT required.
There are much larger populations in soils with a relatively long history of pesticide use than in soils that are free of such chemicals.
Is there any kind of EXCEPTION of this SPECIFIC rule mentioned above ? I mean, is it ALWAYS TRUE in GMAT ?
GMATGuruNY wrote:An exception:
If the second clause refers to SAME ENTITY as the first clause, then a copy pronoun is not required.
Sales of the drug were higher in the United States than in Canada.
So, this above particular EXCEPTION is basically what you mention below in the RULE 1. Am I correct ?
GMATGuruNY wrote:If a modifier is attached to the subject in the first clause, apply the following rule.

RULE 1: If the modifier may be repeated in the second clause with no error in meaning, a copy pronoun is not required in the second clause:
Sales of the drug were higher in the United States than in Canada.

RULE 2: If the modifier may NOT be repeated in the second clause, then a copy pronoun is required in the second clause:
Sales in the United States were higher than in Canada.

To convey a sensical comparison, a copy pronoun is required:
Sales in the United States were higher than THOSE in Canada.
Top
User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 15539
Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 12:04 pm
Location: New York, NY
Thanked: 13060 times
Followed by:1906 members
GMAT Score:790

by GMATGuruNY » Mon Feb 08, 2016 3:49 am
RBBmba@2014 wrote:
GMATGuruNY wrote: If a prepositional modifier such as in soils follows the VERB in a comparison, a copy pronoun is NOT required.
There are much larger populations in soils with a relatively long history of pesticide use than in soils that are free of such chemicals.
Is there any kind of EXCEPTION of this SPECIFIC rule mentioned above ? I mean, is it ALWAYS TRUE in GMAT?
This rule should hold true.
That said, virtually any rule can have exceptions.
GMATGuruNY wrote:An exception:
If the second clause refers to SAME ENTITY as the first clause, then a copy pronoun is not required.
Sales of the drug were higher in the United States than in Canada.
So, this above particular EXCEPTION is basically what you mention below in the RULE 1. Am I correct ?
Correct.
GMATGuruNY wrote:If a modifier is attached to the subject in the first clause, apply the following rule.

RULE 1: If the modifier may be repeated in the second clause with no error in meaning, a copy pronoun is not required in the second clause:
Sales of the drug were higher in the United States than in Canada.
Private tutor exclusively for the GMAT and GRE, with over 20 years of experience.
Followed here and elsewhere by over 1900 test-takers.
I have worked with students based in the US, Australia, Taiwan, China, Tajikistan, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia -- a long list of countries.
My students have been admitted to HBS, CBS, Tuck, Yale, Stern, Fuqua -- a long list of top programs.

As a tutor, I don't simply teach you how I would approach problems.
I unlock the best way for YOU to solve problems.

For more information, please email me (Mitch Hunt) at [email protected].
Student Review #1
Student Review #2
Student Review #3
Top
Post new topic Locked
• Page 1 of 1