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Football Team

by vikram4689 » Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:36 pm
The football team, tired after four hours of practice and wanted to reach home quickly, took a short cut.

A. tired after four hours of practice and wanted to reach home quickly, took a short cut.
B. tired after four hours of practice and wanting to reach home quickly, took a short cut.
C. tired after four hours of practice and because they wanted to reach home quickly, took a short cut.
D. tired after four hours of practice and wanting to reach home quickly, will take a short cut.
E. tiring after four hours of practice and wanting to reach home quickly, took a short cut.

I see this ques different from the FUNGUS ques in OG. There extending is used because main clause used continuous tense but here past tense is used in main clause, so A should be fine but OA is B
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by patanjali.purpose » Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:20 am
vikram4689 wrote:The football team, tired after four hours of practice and wanted to reach home quickly, took a short cut.

A. tired after four hours of practice and wanted to reach home quickly, took a short cut.
B. tired after four hours of practice and wanting to reach home quickly, took a short cut.
B
TEAM WAS TIRED
TEAM WAS WANTING
TEAM WANTED

"TIRED...AND WANTED...quickly" is a MODIFIER and therefore we need non-conjugated verb

WAS TIRED is a conjugated verb; TIRED is a NON-conjugated verb
WAS WANTING is a conjugated verb; WANTING is a NON-conjugated verb
WANTED is a conjugated verb

If we use WANTED we will have 2 conjugated verb (WANTED and TOOK)...without proper connection.

Therefore B is correct
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by vikram4689 » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:30 am
how u decide this.....


WAS TIRED is a conjugated verb; TIRED is a NON-conjugated verb
WAS WANTING is a conjugated verb; WANTING is a NON-conjugated verb
WANTED is a conjugated verb
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by avik.ch » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:29 pm
vikram4689 wrote:how u decide this.....


WAS TIRED is a conjugated verb; TIRED is a NON-conjugated verb
WAS WANTING is a conjugated verb; WANTING is a NON-conjugated verb
WANTED is a conjugated verb
Patanjali explained it from a different angle - conjugate and non conjugate verb. If you find it confusing, refer this.

In this sentence -- "tired after few hours and wanted to reach home quickly" is set off with comma. If we analyze the meaning --

Tired after few hours of practice, the football team took a short cut --- "tired" is the cause for the effect "taking short cut". Moreover "tired" is a past participle and hence derived from a passive construction. Past participle is perfect here as the football team cannot get tired by themselves. There should be a agent for getting tired.

the football team took a short cut , wanting to reach home quickly -- this two action is an action taking place at the same time.

Combine this two --- its B.

Similar SC on this concept : https://www.urch.com/forums/faqs/700-gma ... l#post1544 -- awesome explanation by Erin.

And from OG - SC #42.


Hope this helps !!
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by vikram4689 » Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:48 pm
Thanks Avik,
I understood Eric's explanation for that particular ques.
Also i understand SC Q42 #OG12 and there extending is used coz "tentacles" are still extending.

Now i this question, you mentioned
Tired after few hours of practice, the football team took a short cut
Can't in the same way we can write, whats incorrect in below sentence
Wanted to reach home quickly, the football team took a short cut
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by avik.ch » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:04 pm
vikram4689 wrote:Now i this question, you mentioned
Tired after few hours of practice, the football team took a short cut
Can't in the same way we can write, whats incorrect in below sentence
Wanted to reach home quickly, the football team took a short cut
Well this is dependent on meaning - how we derive a past and present participle phrase.

Both past participle modifier and present participle modifier act in a same way - after all they are participles, perfect aspect. They act as an adverb with a comma and an adjective without a comma. What differs between them is what they convey from meaning and time sequence. All participle phrases are partial phrases - they signify action as a verb but lack tenses and hence they are phrases. We can understand this when we derive this structures.

Past participle modifier are derived from passive sentences -

All the student scored 98 in maths. Those students were taught by jessica.

All the student who were taught by Jessica scored 98 in maths. -- delete the "be" verb and the relative pronoun. As the be verb that carried the tense is deleted it is now a infinite verb aka verb phrase.

All the student taught by Jessica scored 98 in Maths.

as an adjective :

Sequence of action : took place before the main action --> scoring 98 in maths
meaning --> its an essential modifier. only students who were taught by jessica scored 98 in Maths.

The same time sequence hold for adverb modifier when we separate it with comma but the imparted meaning is different.

Taught by Jessica, all the student scored 98 in Maths.

as an adverb :

Sequence of action : took place before the main action --> scoring
meaning --> cause of the students scoring 98 in Maths. Here the participle phrase modifies the whole clause. For stylistic ground, it is generally suggested to place the past participle modifier before the main clause as we generally present the cause and then the effect.

Present participle modifier are derived from progressive tense that are always in active construction. It signifies an action occurring at the same time to that of the main action as they are derived from progressive tense.

I killed a snake, using a stick. -- as an adverb

here ,

Wanted to reach home quickly, the football team took a short cut.

The football team wanted to to something - we cannot afford to use a passive construction here. On the other hand,

The football team was tired by ..... - the team cannot get tired by their own. Passive is required here.


Hope this clarifies all your doubt.
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by vikram4689 » Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:55 am
I followed but lost the touch when i encountered. You are saying we need passive construction in both the cases ? and for passive you used verb-ed modifiers.... Can you give a simple rule how to decide wehen to use verb-ed and when verb-ing modifiers
Wanted to reach home quickly, the football team took a short cut.

The football team wanted to to something - we cannot afford to use a passive construction here. On the other hand,

The football team was tired by ..... - the team cannot get tired by their own. Passive is required here.
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by avik.ch » Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:16 am
vikram4689 wrote:I followed but lost the touch when i encountered. You are saying we need passive construction in both the cases ? and for passive you used verb-ed modifiers.... Can you give a simple rule how to decide wehen to use verb-ed and when verb-ing modifiers
We derive past participle modifier ( i wont use the term verb-ed modifier as all past participle are not in verb-ed form) from passive sentence.

Students were taught phonics by their primary teacher.
Those students can sound unfamiliar words.

students taught phonics by their primary teacher can sound unfamiliar words --> as an adjective

cause --> Three senators prodded by public opinion.
result --> Three senators reversed their vote.

Prodded by public opinion, three senators reversed their vote. -- adverb of reason.

-----------------

I followed but lost the touch when i encountered -- here "followed" and "encountered" are main verb in simple past tense- they are not past participles acting as a modifier here.

-------------------

I am sorry - I am not aware of any such rule in determining this. For more on this, please refer Erin's explanation in Urch.com
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by GMATGuruNY » Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:37 am
vikram4689 wrote:The football team, tired after four hours of practice and wanted to reach home quickly, took a short cut.

A. tired after four hours of practice and wanted to reach home quickly, took a short cut.
B. tired after four hours of practice and wanting to reach home quickly, took a short cut.
C. tired after four hours of practice and because they wanted to reach home quickly, took a short cut.
D. tired after four hours of practice and wanting to reach home quickly, will take a short cut.
E. tiring after four hours of practice and wanting to reach home quickly, took a short cut.

I see this ques different from the FUNGUS ques in OG. There extending is used because main clause used continuous tense but here past tense is used in main clause, so A should be fine but OA is B
In this sentence, tired and wanting are ADJECTIVES describing the TEAM.
As the team took a short cut, how was the team feeling? TIRED after four hours of practice and WANTING to reach home quickly.

To say that the team was wanted would imply that the team was WANTED by SOMEONE ELSE.
Not the intended meaning here.
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by vikram4689 » Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:27 pm
In this sentence, tired and wanting are ADJECTIVES describing the TEAM.
As the team took a short cut, how was the team feeling? TIRED after four hours of practice and WANTING to reach home quickly.
Sorry guys still confused, i have emailed (3 times) to e-gmat as it is their concept that i am using and frankly it worked till now. I will explain points that they taught for particples.
1. Past-participles (verb-ed modifiers)
a) modify closest noun (always)
2. Present participles (verb-ing modifiers)
a) modify closest noun if NOT separated by comma
b) modify preceding clause when separated by comma

I think 1a) and 2a) are adjectives while 2b) is adverb

Now both "tired.. & wanted .." seem verb-ed modifier and that is why i chose B. Can you please explain where i went wrong..

Also, what is the difference in meaning of following 4 sentences and are they grammatically correct
i)The football team,wanted to reach home quickly, took a short cut.
ii)Wanted to reach home quickly, the football team took a short cut.
iii)The football team,wanting to reach home quickly, took a short cut.
iv)Wanting to reach home quickly, the football team took a short cut.
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by vikram4689 » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:14 am
DISCLAIMER: This one is going to be long :)

I decided to do some research on participles and it seems it was fruitful.

Participles: formed from verbs BUT do not act as verb
Present Participles: shows what a thing does ACTIVE VOICE
Past Participles: shows what was done to a thing PASSIVE VOICE
This falls in place with Erin's comment
The -ing form is used for DOING the action, which means SUBJECT, which means ACTIVE voice.
The -ed form is used for RECEIVING the action, which means OBJECT, which means PASSIVE voice.
Present participles which i referred as "verb-ing" modifier end in -ING
Past Participles which i referred as "verb-ed" modifier end in -ED,-N (basically they are 3rd form of verb)

I think i got confused when i considered "wanted" as a past participle/verb-ed modifier. It is not a modifier because "wanted" is acting as a verb and not a participle. To convert it into a participle it needs to be changed into "wanting" because "want" is something that person/team DOES which is active voice and hence needs a PRESENT participle - "wanting"

Using ERIN's comment question can be solved quickly:
Erin mentioned - Find out whether Noun that participle is modifying is SUBJECT/OBJECT and then use participle form accordingly.
Team was TIRED ... passive so PAST participle (TIRED)
Team WANTED ... active so PRESENT participle (WANTING)
Team was wanted ... means team was wanted by someone, not the intended meaning - WRONG

More on PARTICIPLES, Till above we decide participles referring to noun they modify i.e. they were acting as ADJECTIVES but they acts as ADVERBS as well.
Lets consider avik's comment and 4 sentences i mentioned in my last post.
Both past participle modifier and present participle modifier act in a same way - after all they are participles, perfect aspect. They act as an adverb with a comma and an adjective without a comma.
i)The football team,wanted to reach home quickly, took a short cut.
Here "wanted to reach home quickly" is modifying "football team" and hence is acting as an adjective. So it needs to be converted to correct participle which according to above rule can be PRESENT Participle only

ii)Wanted to reach home quickly, the football team took a short cut.
Here, "Wanted to reach home quickly" is working as an ADJECTIVE, modifying the noun "football team" but it needs to be converted to correct participle which according to above rule can be PRESENT Participle only

iii)The football team,wanting to reach home quickly, took a short cut.
"Wanting" is in correct participle form and acts as adverb

iv)Wanting to reach home quickly, the football team took a short cut.
Here "Wanting to reach home quickly" is working as an ADVERB modifying whole clause.

NOTE: Don't make the mistake that i made that is to consider "WANTED" as "participle" when it was acting as "verb". Any verb which is used in ACTIVE voice will have present participle only.
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