Cats and dogs

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by rishab1988 » Thu Dec 02, 2010 3:43 am
@Night Reader

Hope this clarifies that where you were wrong!
Last edited by rishab1988 on Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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by Night reader » Thu Dec 02, 2010 3:51 am
Who else appeals to
(2) The number of families in the neighborhood who have a dog and a cat is the same as the number of families who have neither a cat nor a dog. -?

//Of the 60 families in a certain neighborhood, 38 have a cat. How many of the families in this neighborhood have a dog?

Assumption 1, # families NotC&NotD = 22 (60-38) false, agree no Cats beyond 38, but we don't know anything about Dogs.
Assumption 2, # families C&D = 38 false, then #Cats=#No Cats or 38+38 exceeds 60
Assumption 3, # families C&D = 38 corresponds to # families NotC&NotD = 22 (60-38) false, we have no information about Dogs.
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by Night reader » Thu Dec 02, 2010 4:00 am
No I am not saying Rahul is not correct. I made mistake in overlapping sets. There can be C&D = 38 and NotC&NotD = 38, and they are overlapping...

It's B.
Last edited by Night reader on Thu Dec 02, 2010 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by rishab1988 » Thu Dec 02, 2010 4:16 am
Just see the reply to question tagged "OA is incorrect" by you.I could have used an algebraic approach too but it was too tedious and time taking.On the GMAT time as well as accuracy is precious.Learn how to solve problems using multiple techniques.It will help you tremendously...

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by Geva@EconomistGMAT » Thu Dec 02, 2010 4:44 am
EDITED

1) Experts can be wrong too, though this is rare. (probably rarer with Rahul :)).

However, I have to agree with Rahul and go for B here.
I solved it using a 3*3 table, and that is the way I recommend. When I tried in hindsight to see logically why (2) was sufficient, I tried plugging in a few numbers:

Cats = 38, so no-cat is 22.
Let's say that we have 10 with neither Cat-nor dog. This means two things:
a. stat. (2): The dog+cat is also 10 (this is taken form the 38 cats)
b. The Only-dog is the remaining 12 from the 22 no-cat families.
The total dogs will be 10+12=22.

The surprising part is that if we plug in a different number for neither cat-nor dog (say 20) we still come up with the same total dogs=22.

What happens (and this is probably what Rahul had in mind) is that
total dogs = only dog + dog-cat.
The dog-cat is taken form the 38 cats, while the only dog is taken from the 22 remaining.
If we increase the number of neither dog-nor cat (also from the 22), we "take" dogs away from the only dog component, so this component becomes smaller. BUT we simultaneously increase the "dog-cat" component by the same number, since stat. (2) tells you that the dog-cat = neither dog-nor cat. So if we increase neither/nor by 10, we decrease only dog by 10, but we increase dog-cat by the same, so the total dogs remains a constant number.
Last edited by Geva@EconomistGMAT on Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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by rishab1988 » Thu Dec 02, 2010 4:48 am
Geva@MasterGMAT wrote:
rishab1988 wrote:@Night Reader

Hope this clarifies that where you were wrong!

if you believe that Rahul too is incorrect,then you are at the wrong place.BTG is not for you..
1) Experts can be wrong too, though this is rare. (probably rarer with Rahul :)).

However, I have to agree with Rahul and go for B here.
I solved it using a 3*3 table, and that is the way I recommend. When I tried in hindsight to see logically why (2) was sufficient, I tried plugging in a few numbers:

Cats = 38, so no-cat is 22.
Let's say that we have 10 with neither Cat-nor dog. This means two things:
a. stat. (2): The dog+cat is also 10 (this is taken form the 38 cats)
b. The Only-dog is the remaining 12 from the 22 no-cat families.
The total dogs will be 10+12=22.

The surprising part is that if we plug in a different number for neither cat-nor dog (say 20) we still come up with the same total dogs=22.

What happens (and this is probably what Rahul had in mind) is that
total dogs = only dog + dog-cat.
The dog-cat is taken form the 38 cats, while the only dog is taken from the 22 remaining.
If we increase the number of neither dog-nor cat (also from the 22), we "take" dogs away from the only dog component, so this component becomes smaller. BUT we simultaneously increase the "dog-cat" component by the same number, since stat. (2) tells you that the dog-cat = neither dog-nor cat. So if we increase neither/nor by 10, we decrease only dog by 10, but we increase dog-cat by the same, so the total dogs remains a constant number.
Experts make typos.Mortals like us make blunders.. :)

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by gmatmachoman » Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:38 am
@David,

I have used Matrix/Box method for this Overlapping sets questions....

I found it easier....Is there any other method easier than the other ones used here??

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by rishab1988 » Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:41 am
gmatmachoman wrote:@David,

I have used Matrix/Box method for this Overlapping sets questions....

I found it easier....Is there any other method easier than the other ones used here??
Am I missing something.Your profile says GMAT score:710. Are you retaking after a 710???? or is that your target? :)

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by David@VeritasPrep » Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:57 am
gmatmachoman -

If you have a way that works for you on these Venn Diagram questions then you should stick with it!

I personally use more a table and don't really draw circles or boxes. But then, the table I use is basically the same as the algebraic equation X + Y - Both + Neither.

I think that everything gets you to the same point so whatever helps you to make the most sense of the problem sounds good to me!

Word problems are probably my favorite types because there is an emphasis on just keeping the information straight and avoiding assumptions and unlike say a regular geometry question there are lots of ways to organize your information from a word problem so lots of ways can be right.
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by factor26 » Fri May 27, 2011 2:10 pm
I take a different approach to solving DS questions.

HAVE: _________ (What information is given in the statement?)
WANT: _________ (What is the question asking?)
NEED: _________ (From the information given in the statement, what additional do we need to solve the problem)

HAVE: TOTAL OF 60 FAMILIES IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD, 38 FAMILIES HAVE A CAT

WANT: THE # OF FAMILIES WHO HAVE A DOG (DOES NOT EXCLUDE THE FAMILIES WHO HAVE DOGS & CATS!!)

NEED: # FAMILIES WHO HAVE BOTH DOGS AND CATS, # OF FAMILIES WHO HAVE NEITHER A CAT NOR A DOG.

1) 28 OF THE FAMILIES IN THIS NEIGHBORHOOD HAVE A CAR BUT NOT A DOG.
*** FROM THIS WE CAN CALCULATE THE NUMBER OF FAMILIES WHO HAVE BOTH CATS AND DOGS (38-28 = 10 FAMILIES HAVE BOTH CATS AND DOGS)

2) THE NUMBER OF FAMILIES IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD WHO HAVE A DOG AND A CAT IS THE SAME AS THE NUMBER OF FAMILIES WHO HAVE NEITHER A CAT NOR A DOG.

*** IF YOU GO BACK UP TO THE HAVE, WANT, NEED THIS STATEMENT HAS EXACTLY WHAT WE ARE LOOKING FOR. SINCE THE # OF FAMILIES WHO HAVE BOTH DOGS AND CATS IS EQUAL TO THE # OF FAMILIES WHO HAVE NEITHER DOGS NOR CATS WE CAN SOLVE THE EQUATION.

D = DOGS
C = CATS
B = BOTH DOGS AND CATS
N = NEITHER DOGS NOR CATS

C = N ***

NOW PLUG IN

T = D + C - B + N

60 = D + 38 - N + N

60 = D + 38
-38 - 38
--------------
22 = D

HENCE B IS SUFFICIENT.

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by saurabh2525_gupta » Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:31 am
I concur with David's explanation. Simple and easy to understand.

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by [email protected] » Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:58 am
David@VeritasPrep wrote:OA is B.

The explanations above are correct. For those who need a little slower paced explanation as to why B works, the following gives some more detail.

Correct answer: (B)

Solution: On any Venn diagram problem it is helpful to draw out the two sets and also note the formula Total = Set 1 + Set 2 - Both + Neither. The question stem tells us that the total number of families is 60 and the total number of families with a cat is 38. The question is asking whether we can determine the total number of families who have a dog.

Statement (1) tells us that 28 families have a cat but not a dog. If there are 38 families in total that have a cat, this information tells you that 10 families (38-28) must have both a dog and a cat. It does not, however, give you any information about the number of families who have only a dog or neither a dog nor a cat. It is therefore impossible to determine how many total families have a dog. Note that because the question stem does not say that all the familes own a cat, a dog, or both, some households could own neither.

Statement (2) tells us that the number of families who have both a cat and a dog is the same as the number who have neither. This information does not appear to be sufficient at first glance but a closer look at the Venn diagram formula for two set problems shows that it is. Remember our formula from above: Total Familes = # of Families with a Cat (C) + #of Families with a Dog (D) - Families with Both (B) + Families with Neither (N). Or, with variables, T = C + D - B + N. Plug in the information from the question stem and Statement (2) to find that T = 60, C = 38, and B=N. We can then solve for D using the formula. 60 = 38 + D - B +B. D = 22. Statement (2) alone is sufficient.

So it was actually helpful that the information from the question stem gave the total families with cats and the question was asking about the total number of families with dogs. Because we are working with totals, the Both and the Neither Categories cancel out given the information in statement 2 that these two categories are equal.

Nice work guys!
MR.DAVID, THANKS FOR YOUR EXPLANATION

HOW YOU ASSUME THAT QUESTION IS TALKING ABOUT ONLY TWO PETS i.e CATS AND DOGS ONLY. MAY BE THE 60 FAMILIES HAVE OTHERS PETS EG. LION ALSO. WE ARE NOT SURE THAT IT IS A TWO CIRCLE VAN DIAGRAM OR IT IS A 3 CIRCLE VAN DIAGRAM QUESTION
I THINK THE QUESTION SHOULD READ 60 FAMILY WHO HAVE CAT AND DOGS.

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by David@VeritasPrep » Thu Sep 08, 2011 2:18 pm
This question is not talking about pets. It is quite possible that the families have many other pets and children and cars and lots of things.

We are only discussing cats and dogs here. There is no assumption about other categories, we are looking into cats and dogs, nothing else is mentioned or required.

Did you look at the various explanations by the members and experts above? They are very useful!
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by zander21 » Fri Sep 30, 2011 11:13 am
this is a basic overlapping sets question. set up a table. I've attached my work. #1 is in sufficient when you look at the table. #2, you can either do the simple algebra, or you can just plug in any number for x (dog and a cat is the same as the number of families who have neither a cat nor a dog) and you'll see the total who have a dog is the EXACT same, regardless of what you say x is. see the attachment and give me any feedback please.
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by parul9 » Sun Oct 30, 2011 8:57 am