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until almost vs almost until (require expert help)

by voodoo_child » Wed Jul 13, 2011 2:42 pm
Although various eighteenth- and nineteenth-century American poets had professed an interest in Native American poetry and had pretended to imitate Native American forms in their own works, until almost 1900, scholars and critics did not begin seriously to study traditional Native American poetry in native languages.

(A) until almost 1900, scholars and critics did not begin seriously to study
(B) until almost 1900 scholars and critics had not begun seriously studying
(C) not until almost 1900 were scholars and critics to begin seriously to study
(D) it was not almost until 1900 when scholars and critics began to seriously study
(E) it was not until almost 1900 that scholars and critics seriously began studying

I was able to arrive at the correct answer OA -E using tenses etc. However, I am not clear about "until almost" vs "almost until".

It will be great if you could elaborate with a few examples. I researched on the Internet and couldn't find substantial. There were a bunch of useless "IMO"s

Thanks
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by sandipsharma1 » Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:28 pm
Grammatically, 'almost' is an adverb. So, it must modify 'until' which is an adjective modifying '1900'.
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by amit2k9 » Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:48 pm
voodoo_child wrote:Although various eighteenth- and nineteenth-century American poets had professed an interest in Native American poetry and had pretended to imitate Native American forms in their own works, until almost 1900, scholars and critics did not begin seriously to study traditional Native American poetry in native languages.

(A) until almost 1900, scholars and critics did not begin seriously to study -- change in tense 'did not begin' POE.
(B) until almost 1900 scholars and critics had not begun seriously studying --had not usage improper.POE.
(C) not until almost 1900 were scholars and critics to begin seriously to study --to begin - POE
(D) it was not almost until 1900 when scholars and critics began to seriously study -- when isn't correct usage of the essential clause.
(E) it was not until almost 1900 that scholars and critics seriously began studying --
seriously - adverb correctly used before began.
that usage is proper for essential clause.
removing non-essential modifier the comma portion in the statement destroys the meaning,hence it usage as place holder is a must.

thus E it is.

I was able to arrive at the correct answer OA -E using tenses etc. However, I am not clear about "until almost" vs "almost until".

It will be great if you could elaborate with a few examples. I researched on the Internet and couldn't find substantial. There were a bunch of useless "IMO"s

Thanks
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by e-GMAT » Thu Jul 21, 2011 12:30 pm
In choice D, it is not clear what "almost" modifies. Per the intended meaning "almost" should modify 1900 implying "around 1900 - e.g. it could be in 1899 or 1901"³. But by placing "almost" before "until", the choice no longer communicates the intended approximation of time period "around 1900"³.

You may check the detailed solution for this problem at https://e-gmat.com/blogs/?p=552

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by voodoo_child » Thu Aug 04, 2011 3:44 am
Payal,
I have a question. "Almost" is an adverb. How can it modify noun "1900"?

Until is a preposition.....correct?

Can you please help?

Thanks
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by SticklorForDetails » Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:59 am
voodoo_child wrote:Although various eighteenth- and nineteenth-century American poets had professed an interest in Native American poetry and had pretended to imitate Native American forms in their own works, until almost 1900, scholars and critics did not begin seriously to study traditional Native American poetry in native languages.

(A) until almost 1900, scholars and critics did not begin seriously to study
(B) until almost 1900 scholars and critics had not begun seriously studying
(C) not until almost 1900 were scholars and critics to begin seriously to study
(D) it was not almost until 1900 when scholars and critics began to seriously study
(E) it was not until almost 1900 that scholars and critics seriously began studying

I was able to arrive at the correct answer OA -E using tenses etc. However, I am not clear about "until almost" vs "almost until".

It will be great if you could elaborate with a few examples. I researched on the Internet and couldn't find substantial. There were a bunch of useless "IMO"s

Thanks

"Almost" is an adjective here, modifying 1900. While "not almost until 1900" in (D) is completely strange and unidiomatic anyway, the best way to analyze any such answer choice that moves "almost" around is to think logically about when this sentence is trying to say it is. By "almost 1900" they mean, say, 1899. Any choice that doesn't make it clear that it's 1899 would be wrong.

Here are some examples of grammatically-right-but-logically-different uses of "almost" in a similar context:

"It was almost before midnight when you first called me." In this case, "almost" is an adverb, modifying the adverbial-prepositional-phrase "before midnight," and it means "actually after midnight, but ALMOST before it," so maybe 12:01am

"It was almost midnight when you first called me." In this case, "almost" is an adjective, modifying the noun "midnight," and it means "just before midnight," so maybe 11:59pm

Hope that helps!
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by Jim@Grockit » Sat Aug 06, 2011 8:20 am
"Not" also modifies the word immediately following it (or what would be following it without ellipsis, in cases where the sentence ends in "not", as in No, it was not ), so it would also be strange (but not impossible) to have "not" preceding "almost" in a normal English sentence.

The exception is the negation of a previous phrase: It was almost ready. No, it was NOT almost ready.
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by voodoo_child » Sun Aug 07, 2011 6:46 am
SticklorForDetails wrote:
voodoo_child wrote:Although various eighteenth- and nineteenth-century American poets had professed an interest in Native American poetry and had pretended to imitate Native American forms in their own works, until almost 1900, scholars and critics did not begin seriously to study traditional Native American poetry in native languages.

(A) until almost 1900, scholars and critics did not begin seriously to study
(B) until almost 1900 scholars and critics had not begun seriously studying
(C) not until almost 1900 were scholars and critics to begin seriously to study
(D) it was not almost until 1900 when scholars and critics began to seriously study
(E) it was not until almost 1900 that scholars and critics seriously began studying

I was able to arrive at the correct answer OA -E using tenses etc. However, I am not clear about "until almost" vs "almost until".

It will be great if you could elaborate with a few examples. I researched on the Internet and couldn't find substantial. There were a bunch of useless "IMO"s

Thanks

"Almost" is an adjective here, modifying 1900. While "not almost until 1900" in (D) is completely strange and unidiomatic anyway, the best way to analyze any such answer choice that moves "almost" around is to think logically about when this sentence is trying to say it is. By "almost 1900" they mean, say, 1899. Any choice that doesn't make it clear that it's 1899 would be wrong.

Here are some examples of grammatically-right-but-logically-different uses of "almost" in a similar context:

"It was almost before midnight when you first called me." In this case, "almost" is an adverb, modifying the adverbial-prepositional-phrase "before midnight," and it means "actually after midnight, but ALMOST before it," so maybe 12:01am

"It was almost midnight when you first called me." In this case, "almost" is an adjective, modifying the noun "midnight," and it means "just before midnight," so maybe 11:59pm

Hope that helps!
Adam,
Wow! Your post is really awesome. My dictionary says "almost" can only be adverb. I will throw away my dictionary. I checked Websters and could grasp the concept.

I have a quick question though. I am not able understand why "almost before midnight" ~ 12.01. If I understand it correctly, "before midnight" ~ <12.00 am. Hence, almost X must be less than 12.00 am. Correct?
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by voodoo_child » Sun Aug 07, 2011 6:49 am
Jim@Grockit wrote:"Not" also modifies the word immediately following it (or what would be following it without ellipsis, in cases where the sentence ends in "not", as in No, it was not ), so it would also be strange (but not impossible) to have "not" preceding "almost" in a normal English sentence.

The exception is the negation of a previous phrase: It was almost ready. No, it was NOT almost ready.
Jim,
Thanks for your post. I believe that it would have been fine to say -

"It was not until Noon that I realized that I left my car keys at home"

Here, not is modifying the adverbial-prepositional-phrase "until Noon" Correct? So, if I understand it correctly, not+almost(when used as an adjective) is incorrect. not+almost(when used as an adverb) could be fine?

Please correct me if I am wrong...

Thanks
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by SticklorForDetails » Sun Aug 07, 2011 8:15 am
voodoo_child wrote: I have a quick question though. I am not able understand why "almost before midnight" ~ 12.01. If I understand it correctly, "before midnight" ~ <12.00 am. Hence, almost X must be less than 12.00 am. Correct?
"Almost" implies "not." If say that "I have scored almost 800 on the GMAT," well, you can deduce that I have not, in fact, scored 800. So "almost before midnight" means NOT before midnight.

In response to your other question, I'm not sure exactly how to explain it grammatically, but "not until" is idiomatically correct, having the same meaning as "only after" -- telling us not only the time (until/after) but also the necessity.
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by tanviet » Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:20 am
e-GMAT wrote:In choice D, it is not clear what "almost" modifies. Per the intended meaning "almost" should modify 1900 implying "around 1900 - e.g. it could be in 1899 or 1901"³. But by placing "almost" before "until", the choice no longer communicates the intended approximation of time period "around 1900"³.

You may check the detailed solution for this problem at https://e-gmat.com/blogs/?p=552

Payal
According to the explanation on the website, COMMA is the problem.
OG questions now tests COMMA?. There is no questions in OG10 an OG11 which test COMMA.
Expert, please, give your ideas.
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by Ozlemg » Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:38 am
it was not almost until 1900 when scholars and critics began to seriously study

infinite split is not correct in gmat. ıt has to be to study seriously
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by mundasingh123 » Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:50 am
SticklorForDetails wrote:
voodoo_child wrote: I have a quick question though. I am not able understand why "almost before midnight" ~ 12.01. If I understand it correctly, "before midnight" ~ <12.00 am. Hence, almost X must be less than 12.00 am. Correct?
"Almost" implies "not." If say that "I have scored almost 800 on the GMAT," well, you can deduce that I have not, in fact, scored 800. So "almost before midnight" means NOT before midnight.

"It was almost before midnight when you first called me." In this case, "almost" is an adverb, modifying the adverbial-prepositional-phrase "before midnight," and it means "actually after midnight, but ALMOST before it," so maybe 12:01am
Hi Sticklor , As you said "almost " implies "not " .
so when we say

"It was almost before midnight when you first called me."
It means
"It was not before midnight when you first called me." , so it could be 12:00 am too .

It would be very helpful if you could help me out with this
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by e-GMAT » Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:41 pm
duongthang wrote:
e-GMAT wrote:In choice D, it is not clear what "almost" modifies. Per the intended meaning "almost" should modify 1900 implying "around 1900 - e.g. it could be in 1899 or 1901"³. But by placing "almost" before "until", the choice no longer communicates the intended approximation of time period "around 1900"³.

You may check the detailed solution for this problem at https://e-gmat.com/blogs/?p=552

Payal
According to the explanation on the website, COMMA is the problem.
OG questions now tests COMMA?. There is no questions in OG10 an OG11 which test COMMA.
Expert, please, give your ideas.
GMAT tests punctuation when the use or misuse of punctuation results in distorted or ambiguous meaning. For example, in the question above, because of the way the commas are used, we do not know which verb the modifier is actually modifying. Similarly, if there is a comma prior to verb-ing modifier, then it modifies the preceding clause. If there is not a comma before the verb-ing modifier, then this modifier modifies the closest noun. So definitely, punctuation is tested in GMAT, especially when it impacts the communicated meaning.
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by ashishpks » Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:39 am
voodoo_child wrote:
SticklorForDetails wrote:
voodoo_child wrote:Although various eighteenth- and nineteenth-century American poets had professed an interest in Native American poetry and had pretended to imitate Native American forms in their own works, until almost 1900, scholars and critics did not begin seriously to study traditional Native American poetry in native languages.

(A) until almost 1900, scholars and critics did not begin seriously to study
(B) until almost 1900 scholars and critics had not begun seriously studying
(C) not until almost 1900 were scholars and critics to begin seriously to study
(D) it was not almost until 1900 when scholars and critics began to seriously study
(E) it was not until almost 1900 that scholars and critics seriously began studying

I was able to arrive at the correct answer OA -E using tenses etc. However, I am not clear about "until almost" vs "almost until".

It will be great if you could elaborate with a few examples. I researched on the Internet and couldn't find substantial. There were a bunch of useless "IMO"s

Thanks

"Almost" is an adjective here, modifying 1900. While "not almost until 1900" in (D) is completely strange and unidiomatic anyway, the best way to analyze any such answer choice that moves "almost" around is to think logically about when this sentence is trying to say it is. By "almost 1900" they mean, say, 1899. Any choice that doesn't make it clear that it's 1899 would be wrong.

Here are some examples of grammatically-right-but-logically-different uses of "almost" in a similar context:

"It was almost before midnight when you first called me." In this case, "almost" is an adverb, modifying the adverbial-prepositional-phrase "before midnight," and it means "actually after midnight, but ALMOST before it," so maybe 12:01am

"It was almost midnight when you first called me." In this case, "almost" is an adjective, modifying the noun "midnight," and it means "just before midnight," so maybe 11:59pm

Hope that helps!
Adam,
Wow! Your post is really awesome. My dictionary says "almost" can only be adverb. I will throw away my dictionary. I checked Websters and could grasp the concept.

I have a quick question though. I am not able understand why "almost before midnight" ~ 12.01. If I understand it correctly, "before midnight" ~ <12.00 am. Hence, almost X must be less than 12.00 am. Correct?
Can you pls explain why
"It was almost before midnight when you first called me." In this case, "almost" is an adverb, modifying the adverbial-prepositional-phrase "before midnight," and it means "actually after midnight, but ALMOST before it," so maybe 12:01am
does not mean 11.59 but 12:01am

Thanks in Advance
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