lower / less - Experts help required

This topic has expert replies
User avatar
Legendary Member
Posts: 1325
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 6:24 am
Thanked: 105 times
Followed by:14 members

lower / less - Experts help required

by vikram4689 » Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:58 pm
The price of copper is five dollars lower than the price of silver.
The price of copper is five dollars less than the price of silver.

Although as per scorpionz explanation at https://www.beatthegmat.com/countable-vs ... 50262.html lower is correct but i have heard less quite often
Last edited by vikram4689 on Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:33 am, edited 3 times in total.
Premise: If you like my post
Conclusion : Press the Thanks Button ;)
Source: — Sentence Correction |

User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 1248
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:57 pm
Location: Everywhere
Thanked: 503 times
Followed by:192 members
GMAT Score:780

by Bill@VeritasPrep » Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:34 pm
Countability is one of those concepts that is ignored fairly regularly. You see it a lot at grocery stores. What does the express lane sign say?

TEN ITEMS OR LESS
Join Veritas Prep's 2010 Instructor of the Year, Matt Douglas for GMATT Mondays

Visit the Veritas Prep Blog

Try the FREE Veritas Prep Practice Test

User avatar
Legendary Member
Posts: 1325
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 6:24 am
Thanked: 105 times
Followed by:14 members

by vikram4689 » Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:01 pm
Yes exactly so 2nd sentence should be correct. Is A correct, it lies in accordance with Scorpionz explanation which is based on Ron's. Scorionz mentioned

when referring to a single statistic (in this case "the sum of expenditures"), one must choose "greater than" (or "lower than" if applied to this case)...when dealing with statistics regarding countable objects, but where the count is unknown, one must choose "more than" (or "less than" as in this case)...
Premise: If you like my post
Conclusion : Press the Thanks Button ;)

User avatar
Legendary Member
Posts: 1325
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 6:24 am
Thanked: 105 times
Followed by:14 members

by vikram4689 » Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:36 pm
Anyone who would like to take a shot !
Premise: If you like my post
Conclusion : Press the Thanks Button ;)

Legendary Member
Posts: 2789
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 12:19 am
Location: Chennai, India
Thanked: 206 times
Followed by:43 members
GMAT Score:640

by GmatKiss » Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:42 am
IMO: LESS is correct (countable -> 5$)

User avatar
Legendary Member
Posts: 1325
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 6:24 am
Thanked: 105 times
Followed by:14 members

by vikram4689 » Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:38 am
Bill@VeritasPrep wrote:Countability is one of those concepts that is ignored fairly regularly. You see it a lot at grocery stores. What does the express lane sign say?

TEN ITEMS OR LESS
GmatKiss wrote:IMO: LESS is correct (countable -> 5$)
but LESS is used for NON-COUNTABLE nouns, 10 items or FEWER
Premise: If you like my post
Conclusion : Press the Thanks Button ;)

User avatar
Legendary Member
Posts: 1325
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 6:24 am
Thanked: 105 times
Followed by:14 members

by vikram4689 » Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:56 am
I understood the concept :
The price of copper is five dollars lower than the price of silver. IN-Correct
The price of copper is five dollars less than the price of silver. Correct

This is an exception for LESS - LESS can describe countable quantities referring to money, time and distance.

Only things that can be described as LOW can be described as LOWER.

I will be happy to help with any queries
Premise: If you like my post
Conclusion : Press the Thanks Button ;)

GMAT/MBA Expert

User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 3380
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:20 am
Thanked: 2256 times
Followed by:1535 members
GMAT Score:800

by lunarpower » Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:43 am
i received a private message regarding this thread.

in the example at the top of the thread, either "less" or "lower" could be used. the difference lies primarily in how the speaker/narrator thinks about prices: if price is viewed as a mostly mathematical quantity, then "less" is more appropriate, whereas if price is seen as a more abstract description of an item's worth, then "lower" is more appropriate.

in general, the distinction between fewer/less/lower is this kind of distinction -- based on how the context of the sentence regards the quality or quantity in question.

the clearest difference is usually between "less" and "fewer". specifically, "less" is for non-countable quantities -- generally, things regarded as continuous masses -- while "fewer" is for distinct countable units.
even this distinction, though, still isn't always black and white. for instance, let's consider "words".
if you're talking about the size of someone's vocabulary, then the words are conceived as separate, independent units of vocabulary, so there is no question that they are countable. therefore, a sentence like The average gorilla has a vocabulary of less than 100 words is not as good as The average gorilla has a vocabulary of fewer than 100 words.
by contrast, let's say you're talking about the length of a paper that you have to write for school. in this context, the words are not conceived as independent entities; instead, they are simply a unit used to measure the length of the paper (a notion that is also confirmed by the use of the word "length"). in that case, therefore, it's actually more sensible to say Your paper should be less than 500 words long then it would be to use "fewer".

in any case, i think it's fairly obvious that the gmat is not going to test these sorts of subtleties -- if you see a split between "less" and "fewer", you'll definitely see it in a case that is straightforward (e.g., the number of cars in a driveway -- clearly "fewer", not "less").
Bill@VeritasPrep wrote:Countability is one of those concepts that is ignored fairly regularly. You see it a lot at grocery stores. What does the express lane sign say?

TEN ITEMS OR LESS
needless to say, commercial signage is not the most reliable yardstick of formal linguistic usage.
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.

--

Pueden hacerle preguntas a Ron en castellano
Potete chiedere domande a Ron in italiano
On peut poser des questions à Ron en français
Voit esittää kysymyksiä Ron:lle myös suomeksi

--

Quand on se sent bien dans un vêtement, tout peut arriver. Un bon vêtement, c'est un passeport pour le bonheur.

Yves Saint-Laurent

--

Learn more about ron

User avatar
Legendary Member
Posts: 1325
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 6:24 am
Thanked: 105 times
Followed by:14 members

by vikram4689 » Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:34 am
Thanks Ron. Sometimes i get confused between less and lower.

First, in one of your explanations i read "lower should be used for things that can be described as low". I tried this rule but was not able to convince myself. For e.g. To check if lower is appropriate in case at hand - i checked if "price" can be described as "low" - "Price is low" - but this alone does not make sense, i guess i am missing something. Can you please elaborate by taking an example

Second, what exactly "abstract description" mean . I wasn't able to follow it even when you mentioned, in other post, that we should use "greater" for uncountable nouns describing "abstract characteristic" e.g. power, influence etc.
Last edited by vikram4689 on Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:24 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Premise: If you like my post
Conclusion : Press the Thanks Button ;)

User avatar
Newbie | Next Rank: 10 Posts
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 2:55 am
Thanked: 1 times

by fyllmax » Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:52 am
According to MGMAT sentence correction guide. When you compare two items(things) you should choose lower. As is the sentence:
The price of copper is five dollars lower than the price of silver.

User avatar
Legendary Member
Posts: 1325
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 6:24 am
Thanked: 105 times
Followed by:14 members

by vikram4689 » Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:54 am
Second, what exactly "abstract description" mean . I wasn't able to follow it even when you mentioned, in other post https://www.beatthegmat.com/greater-vs-m ... tml#381739, that we should use "greater" for uncountable nouns describing "abstract characteristic" e.g. power, influence etc.
ron,
please help me with above query.
Premise: If you like my post
Conclusion : Press the Thanks Button ;)

GMAT/MBA Expert

User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 3380
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:20 am
Thanked: 2256 times
Followed by:1535 members
GMAT Score:800

by lunarpower » Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:29 pm
vikram4689 wrote:Thanks Ron. Sometimes i get confused between less and lower.

First, in one of your explanations i read "lower should be used for things that can be described as low". I tried this rule but was not able to convince myself. For e.g. To check if lower is appropriate in case at hand - i checked if "price" can be described as "low" - "Price is low" - but this alone does not make sense, i guess i am missing something. Can you please elaborate by taking an example
i think you're seeing what the real issue is here: namely, it's very hard to describe these kinds of things in terms of "rules". instead, it's generally better to learn them through trial and error -- basically, accumulating examples until your mind begins to see (largely subconscious) patterns.
this is not the same as rote memorization; it's more like developing a certain type of intuition through experience.
nonetheless, i will make my best attempt at a general description.

basically, there are two kinds of things you can describe as "low":

1/
things that are physically low, in terms of literal vertical placement:
the sun is low in the sky.
when the tide is low, people like to walk on the beach.

this usage of "low" is extremely literal, so i doubt that it will cause you any issues.

2/
things that are in some sense quantitative*, including abstractions:
if your confidence is low, your test performance may be adversely affected.
that's a really low price.

*note that, here, "quantitative" doesn't have to mean that there is a literal number attached to something; instead, it basically just means that the notion of "higher and lower levels" makes sense in terms of whatever concept. for instance, nobody is going to start hanging numerical values on things like confidence, but confidence is still "quantitative" in the sense that there are definitely lower and higher amounts of it.
Second, what exactly "abstract description" mean . I wasn't able to follow it even when you mentioned, in other post, that we should use "greater" for uncountable nouns describing "abstract characteristic" e.g. power, influence etc.
this is also a rather complicated issue. most importantly, the problems that test this issue are very old problems, so i think it's safe to say that the focus of SC has shifted away from issues like this (almost certainly because they are so nuanced; they aren't really "reasoning tasks" in the pure sense).

in any case -- "greater" is generally used for things that are abstract, such as power and influence and so on (like you said). by "abstract" i mean things that aren't concrete: for instance, if i have 10 books and you have 8 books, you can't say "i have greater books". etc.
what's potentially confusing here is that you can say that one number of books is greater than another number of books -- but that's because "number" is itself an abstract concept. weird, but i think you get the idea.

if you ARE talking about one of these abstract concepts, then the decision between "greater" and "more" hinges on exactly what you mean.
in these cases, "more" generally implies greater breadth, diversity, or completeness of the quality in question, whereas "greater" implies a higher degree of the same particular version.
for instance, "more talent" would generally be used to refer to someone who is better at more things than someone else, while "greater talent" would be more appropriate for describing a more prodigious ability at one particular thing (like, one person is a better jazz singer than another person, or something).

it is extremely unlikely that you will be tested with this level of subtlety; i'm providing this information almost entirely because it's enjoyable for me to think about these things. (as a native speaker of the language, i normally just intuit them; this is the first time i've ever thought about spelling this kind of thing out. good times.)
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.

--

Pueden hacerle preguntas a Ron en castellano
Potete chiedere domande a Ron in italiano
On peut poser des questions à Ron en français
Voit esittää kysymyksiä Ron:lle myös suomeksi

--

Quand on se sent bien dans un vêtement, tout peut arriver. Un bon vêtement, c'est un passeport pour le bonheur.

Yves Saint-Laurent

--

Learn more about ron

• Page 1 of 1