them vs those

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gmattarget700: Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts; Posts: 67; Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:10 pm; Thanked: 2 times

by gmattarget700 » Sat Jul 04, 2009 10:36 pm

The players' helmets need to be repainted before (they/those) are used in Sunday's game.

which one would be correct: "they" or "those" and why?

thanks in advance[/i]

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Source: Beat The GMAT — Sentence Correction | Sat Jul 04, 2009 10:36 pm

dumb.doofus: Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts; Posts: 435; Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 2:02 pmFollowed by: 1 member; Location: San Jose, CA; Thanked: 43 times; GMAT Score:720

by dumb.doofus » Sat Jul 04, 2009 10:58 pm

They seems perfectly fine here.. no issues.. those is plural of that.. would seem awkward here..

go with they...

if you are thinking that it may be refering to players, well, it is not referring to players at all.. there's only one subject here.. player's helmets.. they is a subject pronoun.. and is correctly referring back to helmets

One love, one blood, one life. You got to do what you should.
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real2008: Legendary Member; Posts: 527; Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 12:06 am; Thanked: 7 times

by real2008 » Sat Jul 04, 2009 11:02 pm

dumb.doofus wrote:They seems perfectly fine here.. no issues.. those is plural of that.. would seem awkward here..

go with they...

if you are thinking that it may be refering to players, well, it is not referring to players at all.. there's only one subject here.. player's helmets.. they is a subject pronoun.. and is correctly referring back to helmets

but isn't the word 'they' reserved for living beings?

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dumb.doofus: Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts; Posts: 435; Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 2:02 pmFollowed by: 1 member; Location: San Jose, CA; Thanked: 43 times; GMAT Score:720

by dumb.doofus » Sat Jul 04, 2009 11:10 pm

real2008 wrote:
dumb.doofus wrote:They seems perfectly fine here.. no issues.. those is plural of that.. would seem awkward here..

go with they...

if you are thinking that it may be refering to players, well, it is not referring to players at all.. there's only one subject here.. player's helmets.. they is a subject pronoun.. and is correctly referring back to helmets
but isn't the word 'they' reserved for living beings?

Nope..

ex 1: Let the chips fall where they may..

ex 2: These rings, these broaches and pins, all have a life in them. They meant something to somebody, so many many years ago. They had personal value.

One love, one blood, one life. You got to do what you should.
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gmattarget700: Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts; Posts: 67; Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:10 pm; Thanked: 2 times

by gmattarget700 » Sat Jul 04, 2009 11:30 pm

thanks...

but why not "those"? why cant "those" refer to antecedent "helmets"

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gmattarget700: Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts; Posts: 67; Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:10 pm; Thanked: 2 times

by gmattarget700 » Sun Jul 05, 2009 12:07 am

i was just browsing to find some answer and here is what I find:

... these/those are never used as a stand-alone pronoun without a noun following...

So, now I understand why "those" would be wrong.

But again, with above explanation, can I say confidently that below is correct?:

The players' helmets need to be repainted before those helmets are used in Sunday's game.

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gmattarget700: Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts; Posts: 67; Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:10 pm; Thanked: 2 times

by gmattarget700 » Sun Jul 05, 2009 6:14 pm

any suggestion?

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goelmohit2002: Legendary Member; Posts: 1799; Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:03 amFollowed by: 2 members; Thanked: 36 times

by goelmohit2002 » Sun Jul 05, 2009 9:50 pm

gmattarget700 wrote:i was just browsing to find some answer and here is what I find:

... these/those are never used as a stand-alone pronoun without a noun following...

So, now I understand why "those" would be wrong.

But again, with above explanation, can I say confidently that below is correct?:

The players' helmets need to be repainted before those helmets are used in Sunday's game.

Can you please point to the location where you found this rule ?

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graghukalyan: Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts; Posts: 50; Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2009 2:36 am; Thanked: 1 times

by graghukalyan » Sun Jul 05, 2009 10:48 pm

gmattarget700 wrote:i was just browsing to find some answer and here is what I find:

... these/those are never used as a stand-alone pronoun without a noun following...

So, now I understand why "those" would be wrong.

But again, with above explanation, can I say confidently that below is correct?:

The players' helmets need to be repainted before those helmets are used in Sunday's game.

Hi,
I agree to the rule which you have quoted. But as per the example you have given, i am not sure whether the usage looks proper.
I feel the primary usage of pronouns (subject , object ...) is to ensure non-repetition of the words and refer back to the already mentioned nouns somewhere in the sentence.
So, in the sentence you mentioned above, using helmets defeats the purpose of usage of a pronouns.

As per the rule you mentioned, exmpls like these look appropriate ::
-> Those children have been playing outside all day.
->Those are yours.

Anybody pls correct me if I am wrong.

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gmattarget700: Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts; Posts: 67; Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:10 pm; Thanked: 2 times

by gmattarget700 » Mon Jul 06, 2009 12:50 am

goelmohit2002, I was referring above rule in MGMAT SC book (page 94).

graghukalyan,
I agree with your explanation but repetition is not always wrong, to bring consistency in the sentence, to adhere to grammar etc...and so, I still feel that below should be treated as correct sentence:

"The players' helmets need to be repainted before those helmets are used in Sunday's game."

What you say?
Any other view?

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goelmohit2002: Legendary Member; Posts: 1799; Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:03 amFollowed by: 2 members; Thanked: 36 times

by goelmohit2002 » Mon Jul 06, 2009 12:14 pm

Hi gmattarget700,

I looked in the OG for this rule...But it seems that either there is more to this rule or GMAT does not follow this rule.

Please see the following question#112 from OG-10. Here the answer is D. But IMO those is not following a noun. Please tell if I am missing something here or misinterpreting you.

==============================================

Domestic automobile manufacturers have invested millions of dollars into research to develop cars more gasoline-efficient even than presently on the road.
(A) into research to develop cars more gasoline-efficient even than presently on the road
(B) into research for developing even more gasoline-efficient cars on the road than at present
(C) for research for cars to be developed that are more gasoline-efficient even than presently the road
(D) in research to develop cars even more gasoline-efficient than those at present on the road
(E) in research for developing cars that are even more gasoline-efficient than presently on the road

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hamxa: Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts; Posts: 45; Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2008 2:17 am; Location: lahore, pakistan

by hamxa » Fri Dec 11, 2009 8:51 am

gmattarget700 wrote:i was just browsing to find some answer and here is what I find:

... these/those are never used as a stand-alone pronoun without a noun following...

So, now I understand why "those" would be wrong.

But again, with above explanation, can I say confidently that below is correct?:

The players' helmets need to be repainted before those helmets are used in Sunday's game.

Please share a few examples illustrating this rule.

Thanks,

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tanviet: Legendary Member; Posts: 1404; Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 6:55 pmFollowed by: 2 members; Thanked: 18 times

by tanviet » Wed Dec 16, 2009 3:19 am

gmattarget700 wrote:The players' helmets need to be repainted before (they/those) are used in Sunday's game.

which one would be correct: "they" or "those" and why?

thanks in advance[/i]

great question. here is the answer.

"they"is used when latter subject is the same as previous subject. "they" is COREFERENT

"those" is used when the latter subject is different from previous subject."those" is SUBTITUTE

for example.

the persons learned gmat; they learned gmat very hard----the same persons, one group

the persons of the first batch learned gmat; those of the second batch learned gmat very hard---2 different groups

you can read grammar books for COREFERENCE AND SUBSTITUTION.But I think, do not read much. remember my explanation is enough for gmat

in OG10, the question " earthquark..." mentions this problem but the OG explanation is not clear.

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hamxa: Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts; Posts: 45; Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2008 2:17 am; Location: lahore, pakistan

by hamxa » Wed Dec 16, 2009 4:09 am

thanks a lot, great explanation.

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