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Experts opinion needed: Turks Problem

by Gaurav 2013-fall » Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:59 pm
I saw some debate on the following problem. This needs some expert's opinion. Following concepts are being tested in this problem: usage of the more than, usage of over, usage of Although vs. Despite. I think this problem is worthy of some discussion.

Although about 99 percent of the more than 50 million Turks are Muslims, the republic founded by Mustafa Kemal Ataturk in 1923 is resolutely secular.

a. Although about 99 percent of the more than 50 million
b. Although about 99 percent of over 50 million of the
c. Although about 99 percent of more than 50 million
d. Despite the fact that about 99 percent of more than 50 million
e. Despite the fact that about 99 percent of over 50 million
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by Kasia@EconomistGMAT » Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:06 am
Both "although" and "despite" are used to express contrast.

although + clause + clause
Although the government refuses to admit it, its economic policy is in ruins.

clause, + although + clause
I'd quite like to go out, although it is a bit late.

"Despite" has quite similar meaning to "although." However, "despite" is followed by a noun phrase and NOT a clause.
We went out despite the rain.
Despite having a headache I enjoyed the film.
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by vk_vinayak » Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:15 am
@Kasia,

Can you tell me the difference (in meaning) between:


Although about 99 percent of the more than 50 million Turks are Muslims, the republic founded by Mustafa Kemal Ataturk in 1923 is resolutely secular.

and

Although about 99 percent of more than the 50 million Turks are Muslims, the republic founded by Mustafa Kemal Ataturk in 1923 is resolutely secular.
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by bubbliiiiiiii » Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:18 am
Thanks Kasia for the differentiation between Although and Despite.

However, I have eliminated B and I am confused between B and C.

Could you also provide some insight on over, more than and the more than?
Regards,

Pranay
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by Ashujain » Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:21 am
Gaurav 2013-fall wrote:I saw some debate on the following problem. This needs some expert's opinion. Following concepts are being tested in this problem: usage of the more than, usage of over, usage of Although vs. Despite. I think this problem is worthy of some discussion.

Although about 99 percent of the more than 50 million Turks are Muslims, the republic founded by Mustafa Kemal Ataturk in 1923 is resolutely secular.

a. Although about 99 percent of the more than 50 million
b. Although about 99 percent of over 50 million of the
c. Although about 99 percent of more than 50 million
d. Despite the fact that about 99 percent of more than 50 million
e. Despite the fact that about 99 percent of over 50 million
I am no expert but If you find my post useful you can read it.

Usage of 'although' and 'despite' is very confusing but I came across 1 simple strategy that is more than useful to decide the correct usage (I dont remember the source though)
Usage of Although:
Format: Although/even though <negative circumstance>, <positive outcome>
Example: Although it was raining, we went to movies

Usage of Despite:
Format: Despite/In spite of <positive circumstance>, <negative outcome>
Example: Despite A's huge wealth, he leads a life of misery.

The sentence in question falls in the first category because there is a negative circumstance - most of the population is muslims and a positive outcome - country is secular.
Hence, Although will be used.

Usage of 'the more than' is correct in this sentence as 'the' makes the population of Turks more specific and it is a valid usage. It may sounds awkward but it is valid.
Hence, answer should be A

Kindly correct me if I am wrong.
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by Gaurav 2013-fall » Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:47 am

Usage of 'although' and 'despite' is very confusing but I came across 1 simple strategy that is more than useful to decide the correct usage (I dont remember the source though)
Usage of Although:
Format: Although/even though <negative circumstance>, <positive outcome>
Example: Although it was raining, we went to movies

Usage of Despite:
Format: Despite/In spite of <positive circumstance>, <negative outcome>
Example: Despite A's huge wealth, he leads a life of misery.

Friend,
There are ample examples of despite in a neagtive circumstance and positive outcomes.
For example, Despite his handicap, John scored two goals for his team.
Be careful in using your theory.[/quote]
Let me tell you something you already know. The world ain't all sunshine and rainbows. It is a very mean and nasty place and it will beat you to your knees and keep you there permanently if you let it. You, me, or nobody is gonna hit as hard as life. But it ain't how hard you hit; it's about how hard you can get hit, and keep moving forward. How much you can take, and keep moving forward. That's how winning is done. Now, if you know what you're worth, then go out and get what you're worth. But you gotta be willing to take the hit, and not pointing fingers saying you ain't where you are because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that and that ain't you. You're better than that! (Rocky VI)
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by Gaurav 2013-fall » Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:51 am
Kasia@MasterGMAT wrote:Both "although" and "despite" are used to express contrast.

although + clause + clause
Although the government refuses to admit it, its economic policy is in ruins.

clause, + although + clause
I'd quite like to go out, although it is a bit late.

"Despite" has quite similar meaning to "although." However, "despite" is followed by a noun phrase and NOT a clause.
We went out despite the rain.
Despite having a headache I enjoyed the film.
Kasia,

The central issue here seems to be the more than 50 million Turks, more than the 50 million Turks , more than 50 million Turks. Each of these have different meanings. Kindly explain when do we use what.

Thanks in advance.
Let me tell you something you already know. The world ain't all sunshine and rainbows. It is a very mean and nasty place and it will beat you to your knees and keep you there permanently if you let it. You, me, or nobody is gonna hit as hard as life. But it ain't how hard you hit; it's about how hard you can get hit, and keep moving forward. How much you can take, and keep moving forward. That's how winning is done. Now, if you know what you're worth, then go out and get what you're worth. But you gotta be willing to take the hit, and not pointing fingers saying you ain't where you are because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that and that ain't you. You're better than that! (Rocky VI)
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by vk_vinayak » Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:09 am
Gaurav 2013-fall wrote:

Usage of 'although' and 'despite' is very confusing but I came across 1 simple strategy that is more than useful to decide the correct usage (I dont remember the source though)
Usage of Although:
Format: Although/even though <negative circumstance>, <positive outcome>
Example: Although it was raining, we went to movies

Usage of Despite:
Format: Despite/In spite of <positive circumstance>, <negative outcome>
Example: Despite A's huge wealth, he leads a life of misery.

Friend,
There are ample examples of despite in a neagtive circumstance and positive outcomes.
For example, Despite his handicap, John scored two goals for his team.
Be careful in using your theory.
Agreed. What @Ashujain is suggesting can be considered a preference, but it is definitely not a rule.
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by Bill@VeritasPrep » Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:33 am
The despite vs. although issue is really included for an additional distraction; the central problem is the wording of the "more than 50 million" phrase.

A--"of the more than 50 million"--correct; we are referring to the Turkish population, which is an exact number greater than 50 million.
B--"of over 50 million"--makes it sounds like we are only talking about a part of the Turkish population
C--"of more than 50 million"--a slight change from B, but has the same issue
D--"of more than 50 million"--same as C
E--""of over 50 million"--same as B
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by GMATGuruNY » Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:23 am
Gaurav 2013-fall wrote:I saw some debate on the following problem. This needs some expert's opinion. Following concepts are being tested in this problem: usage of the more than, usage of over, usage of Although vs. Despite. I think this problem is worthy of some discussion.

Although about 99 percent of the more than 50 million Turks are Muslims, the republic founded by Mustafa Kemal Ataturk in 1923 is resolutely secular.

a. Although about 99 percent of the more than 50 million
b. Although about 99 percent of over 50 million of the
c. Although about 99 percent of more than 50 million
d. Despite the fact that about 99 percent of more than 50 million
e. Despite the fact that about 99 percent of over 50 million
About 99 PERCENT OF THE more than 50 million TURKS are Muslims.
Here, more than 50 million serves as an adjective modifying THE TURKS.
This structure conveys the intended meaning: about 99 PERCENT OF THE TURKS are Muslims.
Here, 99 percent refers to ALL OF THE TURKS; over 50 million serves only to indicate that ALL OF THE TURKS constitute over 50 million people.

About 99 PERCENT OF OVER 50 MILLION of the Turks are Muslims.
Here, of the Turks serves as an adjective modifying OVER 50 MILLION.
This structure conveys the following meaning: about 99 PERCENT OF OVER 50 MILLION are Muslims.
Here, 99 percent refers only to A PORTION of the Turks (over 50 million).
The result is a change in meaning.

Only A -- the original sentence -- conveys the intended meaning.
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by diebeatsthegmat » Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:12 pm
GMATGuruNY wrote:
Gaurav 2013-fall wrote:I saw some debate on the following problem. This needs some expert's opinion. Following concepts are being tested in this problem: usage of the more than, usage of over, usage of Although vs. Despite. I think this problem is worthy of some discussion.

Although about 99 percent of the more than 50 million Turks are Muslims, the republic founded by Mustafa Kemal Ataturk in 1923 is resolutely secular.

a. Although about 99 percent of the more than 50 million
b. Although about 99 percent of over 50 million of the
c. Although about 99 percent of more than 50 million
d. Despite the fact that about 99 percent of more than 50 million
e. Despite the fact that about 99 percent of over 50 million
About 99 PERCENT OF THE more than 50 million TURKS are Muslims.
Here, more than 50 million serves as an adjective modifying THE TURKS.
This structure conveys the intended meaning: about 99 PERCENT OF THE TURKS are Muslims.
Here, 99 percent refers to ALL OF THE TURKS; over 50 million serves only to indicate that ALL OF THE TURKS constitute over 50 million people.

About 99 PERCENT OF OVER 50 MILLION of the Turks are Muslims.
Here, of the Turks serves as an adjective modifying OVER 50 MILLION.
This structure conveys the following meaning: about 99 PERCENT OF OVER 50 MILLION are Muslims.
Here, 99 percent refers only to A PORTION of the Turks (over 50 million).
The result is a change in meaning.

Only A -- the original sentence -- conveys the intended meaning.
i do understand why the B, D, D are wrong but between C and A i do not understand why there is " the" in A... can you please explain in more details? thank you
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by GMATGuruNY » Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:28 am
diebeatsthegmat wrote:
GMATGuruNY wrote:
Gaurav 2013-fall wrote:I saw some debate on the following problem. This needs some expert's opinion. Following concepts are being tested in this problem: usage of the more than, usage of over, usage of Although vs. Despite. I think this problem is worthy of some discussion.

Although about 99 percent of the more than 50 million Turks are Muslims, the republic founded by Mustafa Kemal Ataturk in 1923 is resolutely secular.

a. Although about 99 percent of the more than 50 million
b. Although about 99 percent of over 50 million of the
c. Although about 99 percent of more than 50 million
d. Despite the fact that about 99 percent of more than 50 million
e. Despite the fact that about 99 percent of over 50 million
About 99 PERCENT OF THE more than 50 million TURKS are Muslims.
Here, more than 50 million serves as an adjective modifying THE TURKS.
This structure conveys the intended meaning: about 99 PERCENT OF THE TURKS are Muslims.
Here, 99 percent refers to ALL OF THE TURKS; over 50 million serves only to indicate that ALL OF THE TURKS constitute over 50 million people.

About 99 PERCENT OF OVER 50 MILLION of the Turks are Muslims.
Here, of the Turks serves as an adjective modifying OVER 50 MILLION.
This structure conveys the following meaning: about 99 PERCENT OF OVER 50 MILLION are Muslims.
Here, 99 percent refers only to A PORTION of the Turks (over 50 million).
The result is a change in meaning.

Only A -- the original sentence -- conveys the intended meaning.
i do understand why the B, D, D are wrong but between C and A i do not understand why there is " the" in A... can you please explain in more details? thank you
TEN PEOPLE in the room are eating cookies.
Here, there are MORE THAN TEN people in the room, but only A PORTION -- ten -- are eating cookies.

THE TEN PEOPLE in the room are eating cookies.
Here, there are EXACTLY TEN people in the room, and ALL OF THEM are eating cookies.
THE ten people implies that there are NO OTHER PEOPLE in the room.

In the SC above:
Over 50 million Turks -- without the preceding THE -- implies that there could be MANY MORE than 50 million Turks.
Thus, 99% of over 50 million could be a small percentage of the TOTAL number of Turks.

THE over 50 million Turks means ALL of the Turks.
Here, there might be a few more than 50 million Turks, but the TOTAL number is close to 50 million.
Thus, 99% of THE over 50 million Turks means 99% of the TOTAL number of Turks -- in other words, virtually ALL of the Turks.
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