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SC doubt

by ramya_kvp » Sun Mar 13, 2011 9:40 am
Prior to the battle of Actium, Anthony's generals argued that if Cleopatra goes home many of the Roman senate, Roman people and Roman army would quit their support of Octavianus.

A) goes home many of the Roman senate, Roman people and Roman army would quit their
B) would go home many of the Roman senate, the Roman people and the Roman army would quit their
C) would go home many of the Roman senate, the Roman people and the Roman army will quit their
D) went home, then many of the Roman senate, the Roman people and the Roman army will quit their
E) were to go home many of the Roman senate, the Roman people and the Roman army would quit their

Can some one explain me how come E is the answer?

Thanks,
Ramya.
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by Night reader » Sun Mar 13, 2011 12:44 pm
it's so obvious here answer E is past conditional form although incorrect. What's the source of this question? The correct version should be Prior to the battle of Actium, Anthony's generals argued that if Cleopatra {the past participial form "to be forced"} to go home, (comma-important) many of the Roman senate, the Roman people, (comma-important, more than two repeated parallel expressions) the Roman people {would + have quit-past form} their support of Octavianus.

the form "past tense/were" - "would + verb" is used for unreal present conditions, BUT look we have all the occurence in the past, hence we need to keep the conditional part in the past too.

e.g. "If I were reach, I would travel around the world" - I am not reach, and I don't travel around the world
e.g. "If I had been reach, I would have traveled around the world" - I was not reach, and I did not travel around the world.

don't practice unofficial series of SC please, this won't help
ramya_kvp wrote:Prior to the battle of Actium, Anthony's generals argued that if Cleopatra goes home many of the Roman senate, Roman people and Roman army would quit their support of Octavianus.

A) goes home many of the Roman senate, Roman people and Roman army would quit their
B) would go home many of the Roman senate, the Roman people and the Roman army would quit their
C) would go home many of the Roman senate, the Roman people and the Roman army will quit their
D) went home, then many of the Roman senate, the Roman people and the Roman army will quit their
E) were to go home many of the Roman senate, the Roman people and the Roman army would quit their

Can some one explain me how come E is the answer?

Thanks,
Ramya.
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by Jim@Grockit » Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:12 am
Tricky sentence! It's definitely a condition, but the past tense, the uncertainty about the original statement, and the fact that we know it didn't happen make it harder!

The "original argument" by the generals may have been:

Hey, Antony! If Cleopatra goes home, the Romans will quit their support of Octavian ("future real" prediction -- the generals think this will happen), or
Hey, Antony! If Cleopatra went home, the Romans would quit their support of Octavian ("future unreal" -- the generals think it's not as likely or possible she'd go home)

Once it's reported in the past tense, it gets weird, because the past tense of "will" is "would", and "would" is also that modal word in the future unreal condition. It ends up looking the same in indirect (reported) speech:

The generals argued that if Cleopatra went home, the Romans would quit their support of Antony.


Also, regarding that comma -- the comma before the final item in the list (baseball, hot dogs, and apple pie) is called the Oxford comma or the serial comma. I personally think it's awesome (it's how I was taught to do lists) and the GMAT uses it, but many people with a great deal of authority consider it superfluous, so while its absence undercuts the authority of the source of this question, it's not actually wrong.
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by Night reader » Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:43 pm
hi Jim, was I total wrong in this entry too? How you could explain this SC entry from the "book" - do you agree with its prompt and answer choices A-E?
Jim@Grockit wrote:Tricky sentence! It's definitely a condition, but the past tense, the uncertainty about the original statement, and the fact that we know it didn't happen make it harder!

The "original argument" by the generals may have been:

Hey, Antony! If Cleopatra goes home, the Romans will quit their support of Octavian ("future real" prediction -- the generals think this will happen), or
Hey, Antony! If Cleopatra went home, the Romans would quit their support of Octavian ("future unreal" -- the generals think it's not as likely or possible she'd go home)

Once it's reported in the past tense, it gets weird, because the past tense of "will" is "would", and "would" is also that modal word in the future unreal condition. It ends up looking the same in indirect (reported) speech:

The generals argued that if Cleopatra went home, the Romans would quit their support of Antony.


Also, regarding that comma -- the comma before the final item in the list (baseball, hot dogs, and apple pie) is called the Oxford comma or the serial comma. I personally think it's awesome (it's how I was taught to do lists) and the GMAT uses it, but many people with a great deal of authority consider it superfluous, so while its absence undercuts the authority of the source of this question, it's not actually wrong.
My knowledge frontiers came to evolve the GMATPill's methods - the credited study means to boost the Verbal competence. I really like their videos, especially for RC, CR and SC. You do check their study methods at https://www.gmatpill.com
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by gmat_perfect » Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:20 am
Prior to the battle of Actium, Anthony's generals argued that if Cleopatra goes home many of the Roman senate, Roman people and Roman army would quit their support of Octavianus.

A) goes home many of the Roman senate, Roman people and Roman army would quit their
B) would go home many of the Roman senate, the Roman people and the Roman army would quit their
C) would go home many of the Roman senate, the Roman people and the Roman army will quit their
D) went home, then many of the Roman senate, the Roman people and the Roman army will quit their
E) were to go home many of the Roman senate, the Roman people and the Roman army would quit their

The skeleton of the sentence:

If Cleopatra goes senate, Roman XX would support.

Now, review the "If X happened, Y would happen" structures:

1. If X happens, Y will happen.
2. If X happened, Y would happen.
3. If X had happened, Y would have happened.

We just need to check which option follows any one of the above structures:

A. Goes......would- NOPE.
B. would.......would. NOPE.

NOTE: If clause will NEVER have "would/will".

Example:

If I will read more, I make a good score. [Incorrect.]
If I would rich, I helped the poor. [Incorrect.]

C. Would ......will. NOPE.
D. went.......will. Nope.
E. were.............would. YES.

This is so simple if we know the three basic structures of "If X happens, Y will happen".

Thanks.
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by Night reader » Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:01 am
@perfect, the occurrence in this sentence is in the past tense. Don't we need {would + have +past participial for of verb, ... ... past participial tense}? This is unreal condition which occurred in the past.

I cannot marke -E, as in one the conditional form is given in the present tense.
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gmat_perfect wrote:Prior to the battle of Actium, Anthony's generals argued that if Cleopatra goes home many of the Roman senate, Roman people and Roman army would quit their support of Octavianus.

A) goes home many of the Roman senate, Roman people and Roman army would quit their
B) would go home many of the Roman senate, the Roman people and the Roman army would quit their
C) would go home many of the Roman senate, the Roman people and the Roman army will quit their
D) went home, then many of the Roman senate, the Roman people and the Roman army will quit their
E) were to go home many of the Roman senate, the Roman people and the Roman army would quit their

The skeleton of the sentence:

If Cleopatra goes senate, Roman XX would support.

Now, review the "If X happened, Y would happen" structures:

1. If X happens, Y will happen.
2. If X happened, Y would happen.
3. If X had happened, Y would have happened.

We just need to check which option follows any one of the above structures:

A. Goes......would- NOPE.
B. would.......would. NOPE.

NOTE: If clause will NEVER have "would/will".

Example:

If I will read more, I make a good score. [Incorrect.]
If I would rich, I helped the poor. [Incorrect.]

C. Would ......will. NOPE.
D. went.......will. Nope.
E. were.............would. YES.

This is so simple if we know the three basic structures of "If X happens, Y will happen".

Thanks.
My knowledge frontiers came to evolve the GMATPill's methods - the credited study means to boost the Verbal competence. I really like their videos, especially for RC, CR and SC. You do check their study methods at https://www.gmatpill.com
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by tetura84 » Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:41 am
I don't think we can use past perfect tense here, because, we need two actions.
May be an appropriate sentence would be,

The Japanese government said, if we had moved our people before tsunami came, we would have saved a lot of lives.
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by Night reader » Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:47 am
Prior to the battle of Actium, Anthony's generals argued that if Cleopatra {the past participial form "to be forced"} to go home, (comma-important) many of the Roman senate, the Roman people, (comma-important, more than two repeated parallel expressions) the Roman people {would + have quit-participial II} their support of Octavianus.

compare with OA - choice E

Prior to the battle of Actium, Anthony's generals argued that if Cleopatra were to go home many of the Roman senate, the Roman people and the Roman army would quit their support of Octavianus.
Jim@Grockit wrote:Tricky sentence! It's definitely a condition, but the past tense, the uncertainty about the original statement, and the fact that we know it didn't happen make it harder!
gmat_perfect wrote:Now, review the "If X happened, Y would happen" structures:

1. If X happens, Y will happen.
2. If X happened, Y would happen.
3. If X had happened, Y would have happened.

We just need to check which option follows any one of the above structures:
Night reader wrote: the occurrence in this sentence is in the past tense. Don't we need {would + have +past participial for of verb, ... ... past participial tense}? This is unreal condition which occurred in the past.

I cannot mark -E, as in one the conditional form is given in the present tense.
My knowledge frontiers came to evolve the GMATPill's methods - the credited study means to boost the Verbal competence. I really like their videos, especially for RC, CR and SC. You do check their study methods at https://www.gmatpill.com
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