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by deepak123gmat » Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:51 am
A substance derived from the Madagascar periwinkle, which has proved useful in
decreasing mortality among young leukemia patients, is cultivated in China as
part of a program to integrate traditional herbal medicine into a contemporary
system of health care.

(A) A substance derived from the Madagascar periwinkle, which has proved
useful in decreasing mortality among young leukemia patients,
(B) A derivative, which has proved useful in decreasing mortality among young
leukemia patients, of the Madagascar periwinkle,
(C) A Madagascar periwinkle derivative, which has proved useful in decreasing
mortality among young leukemia patients,
(D) The Madagascar periwinkle has a derivative which has proved useful in
decreasing mortality among young leukemia patients, that
(E) The Madagascar periwinkle, a derivative of which has proved useful in
decreasing mortality among young leukemia patients,

Ans E
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by shovan85 » Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:09 am
Has to be E

only this option says "The Madagascar periwinkle is cultivated".

all other options says the substance is cultivated but actually by cultivating The Madagascar periwinkle they are getting the substance.
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by pesfunk » Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:26 pm
I am confused :(
Could someone please explain why not D ?
deepak123gmat wrote:A substance derived from the Madagascar periwinkle, which has proved useful in
decreasing mortality among young leukemia patients, is cultivated in China as
part of a program to integrate traditional herbal medicine into a contemporary
system of health care.

(A) A substance derived from the Madagascar periwinkle, which has proved
useful in decreasing mortality among young leukemia patients,
(B) A derivative, which has proved useful in decreasing mortality among young
leukemia patients, of the Madagascar periwinkle,
(C) A Madagascar periwinkle derivative, which has proved useful in decreasing
mortality among young leukemia patients,
(D) The Madagascar periwinkle has a derivative which has proved useful in
decreasing mortality among young leukemia patients, that
(E) The Madagascar periwinkle, a derivative of which has proved useful in
decreasing mortality among young leukemia patients,

Ans E
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by shovan85 » Thu Oct 14, 2010 9:45 am
pesfunk wrote:I am confused :(
Could someone please explain why not D ?
Did you understand why E is correct? In E we are sure that "Madagascar periwinkle" is cultivated not the derivative. The derivative is from the Madagascar periwinkle. As we cultivate Grape to get wine ;).

In D, the presence of "that" at the end of the underline creates the ambiguity. It may refer to Madagascar periwinkle or to the derivative of Madagascar periwinkle.

Hope this helps.
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by gmat_perfect » Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:49 am
shovan85 wrote:
pesfunk wrote:I am confused :(
Could someone please explain why not D ?
Did you understand why E is correct? In E we are sure that "Madagascar periwinkle" is cultivated not the derivative. The derivative is from the Madagascar periwinkle. As we cultivate Grape to get wine ;).

In D, the presence of "that" at the end of the underline creates the ambiguity. It may refer to Madagascar periwinkle or to the derivative of Madagascar periwinkle.

Hope this helps.
Nope, this is not the exact reason for which D is wrong.

D is wrong for the use of "that".

1. That introduces restrictive clause, which defined the NOUN after which "that" is used.
2. No COMMA is used before. Meaning "COMMA +THAT" is NOT correct.
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by uwhusky » Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:56 am
gmat_perfect wrote: 2. No COMMA is used before. Meaning "COMMA +THAT" is NOT correct.
This statement is not accurate, and I'll be very careful on using it as a rule of thumb.

There are many cases where a sentence might insert non-essential information between a noun and that because there isn't a better place for such information, and as a result, you will see comma + that.

Case and point: Verbal Guide question #34 https://www.beatthegmat.com/lacking-info ... 36176.html
Yep.
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by gmat_perfect » Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:44 am
uwhusky wrote:
gmat_perfect wrote: 2. No COMMA is used before. Meaning "COMMA +THAT" is NOT correct.
This statement is not accurate, and I'll be very careful on using it as a rule of thumb.

There are many cases where a sentence might insert non-essential information between a noun and that because there isn't a better place for such information, and as a result, you will see comma + that.

Case and point: Verbal Guide question #34 https://www.beatthegmat.com/lacking-info ... 36176.html
Yes, of course.

Example:

I have a book, a gift from one of my friends, that describes the consequences of the World War II.

--> In this case, the non-essential modifier has been used, and it has been set off by comma. if we get rid of commas, we get the main sentence.

I have a book that describes the consequences of World War II.

Your point is good. I just overlooked this non-essential modifier issue.

Thanks for pointing to that.
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by shovan85 » Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:06 pm
gmat_perfect wrote:
shovan85 wrote:
pesfunk wrote:I am confused :(
Could someone please explain why not D ?
Did you understand why E is correct? In E we are sure that "Madagascar periwinkle" is cultivated not the derivative. The derivative is from the Madagascar periwinkle. As we cultivate Grape to get wine ;).

In D, the presence of "that" at the end of the underline creates the ambiguity. It may refer to Madagascar periwinkle or to the derivative of Madagascar periwinkle.

Hope this helps.
Nope, this is not the exact reason for which D is wrong.

D is wrong for the use of "that".

1. That introduces restrictive clause, which defined the NOUN after which "that" is used.
2. No COMMA is used before. Meaning "COMMA +THAT" is NOT correct.
Ok My fault.

So does it mean that the way "Which" is used the same way "That" has to be used.... means referring to the just previous noun (as which does)?
Say Comma is not here in option D... what are your thoughts about it?

@pesfunk : Apologies-- I told the way I understood.
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by uwhusky » Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:30 pm
You're welcome. Hopefully you'll do the same and point out my mistakes.
Yep.
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by gmat_perfect » Thu Oct 14, 2010 8:55 pm
shovan85 wrote:
gmat_perfect wrote:
shovan85 wrote:
pesfunk wrote:I am confused :(
Could someone please explain why not D ?
Did you understand why E is correct? In E we are sure that "Madagascar periwinkle" is cultivated not the derivative. The derivative is from the Madagascar periwinkle. As we cultivate Grape to get wine ;).

In D, the presence of "that" at the end of the underline creates the ambiguity. It may refer to Madagascar periwinkle or to the derivative of Madagascar periwinkle.

Hope this helps.
Nope, this is not the exact reason for which D is wrong.

D is wrong for the use of "that".

1. That introduces restrictive clause, which defined the NOUN after which "that" is used.
2. No COMMA is used before. Meaning "COMMA +THAT" is NOT correct.
Ok My fault.

So does it mean that the way "Which" is used the same way "That" has to be used.... means referring to the just previous noun (as which does)?
Say Comma is not here in option D... what are your thoughts about it?

@pesfunk : Apologies-- I told the way I understood.
The "which" in the option D is also a problem. Which has been used as essential, but GMAT does not allow "which" to be used in that way. In case of which just remember the following:

1. COMMA + Which---is correct.
2. X Preposition Y, which--in this case, "which" will refer to the eligible NOUN. Eligible NOUN means a NOUN that will meet the following requirements:
2.1. The verb after which matches with the NOUN
2.2. The NOUN will be logical in context of the sentence.

Example:

I have a box of pens, which is on the table.
--> Here, which refers to "box" because:
==> the verb "is" matches with box, the singular subject.
==> he box is the on the table, and it is okay regarding meaning.


(D) The Madagascar periwinkle has a derivative which has proved useful in
decreasing mortality among young leukemia patients, that

So, the option D has two errors:
1. Which' has been used incorrectly.
2. That' has been used incorrectly.

Thanks.
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by shovan85 » Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:39 pm
gmat_perfect wrote: 1. COMMA + Which---is correct.
2. X Preposition Y, which--in this case, "which" will refer to the eligible NOUN. Eligible NOUN means a NOUN that will meet the following requirements:
2.1. The verb after which matches with the NOUN
2.2. The NOUN will be logical in context of the sentence.

Example:

I have a box of pens, which is on the table.
--> Here, which refers to "box" because:
==> the verb "is" matches with box, the singular subject.
==> he box is the on the table, and it is okay regarding meaning.
Awesome. Great explanation :)
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by neerajkumar1_1 » Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:44 am
great explanation for the answer...

but i took the sentence as the derivative being cultivated... so thought of choice C...
can u guyz help me as to why we cant keep the subject of the sentence as the derivative substance..
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by shovan85 » Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:48 am
neerajkumar1_1 wrote:great explanation for the answer...

but i took the sentence as the derivative being cultivated... so thought of choice C...
can u guyz help me as to why we cant keep the subject of the sentence as the derivative substance..
I know my reasoning was wrong for the usage of THAT in option D but my other explanation why E is correct is not wrong.

Why E is correct? In E we are sure that "Madagascar periwinkle" is cultivated not the derivative. The derivative is from the Madagascar periwinkle. As we cultivate Grape to get wine ;).

You can cultivate the tree or herb (whatever source) but from the source only we can get the derivative. So I think we cannot keep the subject as the derivative but the Madagascar periwinkle.
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