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Present Perfect and Past Perfect Usage - Summarized

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Present Perfect and Past Perfect Usage - Summarized

by mmslf75 » Sat Dec 12, 2009 6:56 am
Usage of HAD BEEN

2 sentences I came across on GM@tClub Test

#1 Unfortunately for the commuters who lost their lives when the bridge collapsed, the engineer was not honest at the preliminary public safety commission hearing, when he was questioned about the structure's weight-bearing abilities.

A was not honest
B was not
C was honest
D had not been honest
E had not been being honest

OA D

#2 Before the storm destroyed much of the harbor, this town, with its sandy beaches and multiple opportunities for sports, had been one of the most popular resort destinations on the East Coast.

A had been
B has been
C had been being
D was being
E was

OA E


Query : In #1, do we use HAD BEEN as it mentions PRELIMINARY ??
In # 2, use of BEFORE must imply that A is the best answer right ??

Anyother example to illustrate the usage of "HAD BEEN" ....
Last edited by mmslf75 on Sun Dec 27, 2009 1:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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by scoobydooby » Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:18 am
we need the past perfect to indicate the earlier of two past events.

#1 the safety commission meeting had happened before the bridge collapsed. so we use the "had been" to indicate that this happened before the collapse. "preliminary" doesnt by itself indicate which event happened earlier. it just works as an adjective here

#2 "before" very cleary signifies what happened earlier and what happened later. so we do not need to use past perfect "had been" to indicate the earlier of the past events. so a simple past is used.
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by mmslf75 » Sun Dec 13, 2009 1:32 am
scoobydooby wrote:we need the past perfect to indicate the earlier of two past events.

#1 the safety commission meeting had happened before the bridge collapsed. so we use the "had been" to indicate that this happened before the collapse. "preliminary" doesnt by itself indicate which event happened earlier. it just works as an adjective here

#2 "before" very cleary signifies what happened earlier and what happened later. so we do not need to use past perfect "had been" to indicate the earlier of the past events. so a simple past is used.


Before" in a sentence stands logically for a SIMPLE Past right ?>
Take for example
:::

Before its independence in 1947, Britain ruled India as a colony and they would relinquish power only after a long struggle by the native people.

Before its independence in 1947, Britain ruled India as a colony and they would relinquish power
Before independence in 1947, Britain had ruled India as a colony and relinquished power
Before its independence in 1947, India was ruled by Britain as a colony and they relinquished power
Before independence in 1947, India had been ruled as a colony by Britain, which relinquished power
Before independence in 1947, India had been a colony of the British, who relinquished power

Here OA is E and the source is MGMAT...CAT 3
Here I took BEFORE as Simple Past ( as it shows some past time )//
Any1 anybody please help on questions involving .. SIMPLE PAST and PAST PERFECT please

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Topic: 1000scn
Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:42 am

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In 1981 children in the United States spent an average of slightly less than two and a half hours a week doing household chores; by 1997 they had spent nearly six hours a week.
A. chores; by 1997 they had spent nearly six hours a week
B. chores; by 1997 that figure had grown to nearly six hours a week
C. chores, whereas nearly six hours a week were spent in 1997
D. chores, compared with a figure of nearly six hours a week in 1997
E. chores, that figure growing to nearly six hours a week in 1997


Here OA is B
I fail to understand how ?? usage of HAD here..again...need calrity...!!
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by lunarpower » Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:56 pm
these gmatclub problems are not good.

WARNING:
verb tenses are difficult and subtle.
as in pretty much any other language in the world, the features that distinguish one tense from another are extremely subtle and difficult to articulate.

GOOD NEWS:
it's extremely rare for the gmat to test past vs. past perfect as a deciding factor. i.e., if there's a past / past perfect issue, there will usually also be other problems with the sentence.

here's the basic deal:
you should use the PAST PERFECT for the earlier of two past events IF:
- it's the EARLIER event
- the events are not listed in PARALLEL (i.e., not "X and then Y"; "did x, did y, and did z"; etc)
- the earlier event has an impact/influence on, or is relevant in some way to, the later event

mmslf75 wrote:#1 Unfortunately for the commuters who lost their lives when the bridge collapsed, the engineer was not honest at the preliminary public safety commission hearing, when he was questioned about the structure's weight-bearing abilities.

A was not honest
B was not
C was honest
D had not been honest
E had not been being honest

OA D
ok, this one should definitely be (d). his dishonesty at the hearing came before "lost their lives"; they're not parallel structures; and the relevance is clear.

however, there's a problem: the non-underlined part shouldn't say "he was questioned". it should say "he had been questioned", since it's simultaneous with (and therefore should be parallel to) the underlined verb.

#2 Before the storm destroyed much of the harbor, this town, with its sandy beaches and multiple opportunities for sports, had been one of the most popular resort destinations on the East Coast.

A had been
B has been
C had been being
D was being
E was

OA E
bad question. this one can actually go either way.

if you're trying to emphasize the fact that the town was a popular destination (and downplay the destruction), you'll use "was".
if you're trying to emphasize the destruction (in contrast to the previous status of the town), you'll use "had been".

two more examples:
tom had been a professional football player before his leg was injured in an accident --> this sentence is meant to emphasize the abrupt ending of tom's football career, due to the accident.
tom was a professional football player before his leg was injured in an accident --> the emphasis is on the fact that tom played pro football, not on the way his career ended.

again, both correct.

by the way, people, you don't really have to understand these rhetorical differences. in the instance of this second problem, there are actually two "correct" answers.

this is the danger of getting problems from random sources on the internet.
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.

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by mmslf75 » Sat Dec 19, 2009 6:17 am
lunarpower wrote:these gmatclub problems are not good.

WARNING:
verb tenses are difficult and subtle.
as in pretty much any other language in the world, the features that distinguish one tense from another are extremely subtle and difficult to articulate.

GOOD NEWS:
it's extremely rare for the gmat to test past vs. past perfect as a deciding factor. i.e., if there's a past / past perfect issue, there will usually also be other problems with the sentence.

here's the basic deal:
you should use the PAST PERFECT for the earlier of two past events IF:
- it's the EARLIER event
- the events are not listed in PARALLEL (i.e., not "X and then Y"; "did x, did y, and did z"; etc)
- the earlier event has an impact/influence on, or is relevant in some way to, the later event

mmslf75 wrote:#1 Unfortunately for the commuters who lost their lives when the bridge collapsed, the engineer was not honest at the preliminary public safety commission hearing, when he was questioned about the structure's weight-bearing abilities.

A was not honest
B was not
C was honest
D had not been honest
E had not been being honest

OA D
ok, this one should definitely be (d). his dishonesty at the hearing came before "lost their lives"; they're not parallel structures; and the relevance is clear.

however, there's a problem: the non-underlined part shouldn't say "he was questioned". it should say "he had been questioned", since it's simultaneous with (and therefore should be parallel to) the underlined verb.

#2 Before the storm destroyed much of the harbor, this town, with its sandy beaches and multiple opportunities for sports, had been one of the most popular resort destinations on the East Coast.

A had been
B has been
C had been being
D was being
E was

OA E
bad question. this one can actually go either way.

if you're trying to emphasize the fact that the town was a popular destination (and downplay the destruction), you'll use "was".
if you're trying to emphasize the destruction (in contrast to the previous status of the town), you'll use "had been".

two more examples:
tom had been a professional football player before his leg was injured in an accident --> this sentence is meant to emphasize the abrupt ending of tom's football career, due to the accident.
tom was a professional football player before his leg was injured in an accident --> the emphasis is on the fact that tom played pro football, not on the way his career ended.

again, both correct.

by the way, people, you don't really have to understand these rhetorical differences. in the instance of this second problem, there are actually two "correct" answers.

this is the danger of getting problems from random sources on the internet.

Ron,

So takeaway is.. BEFORE necessarily doesnot imply that use PAST PERFECT
Check the sense of the question and answer
Thanks
But please answer this one as well

Before its independence in 1947, Britain ruled India as a colony and they would relinquish power only after a long struggle by the native people.

Before its independence in 1947, Britain ruled India as a colony and they would relinquish power
Before independence in 1947, Britain had ruled India as a colony and relinquished power
Before its independence in 1947, India was ruled by Britain as a colony and they relinquished power
Before independence in 1947, India had been ruled as a colony by Britain, which relinquished power
Before independence in 1947, India had been a colony of the British, who relinquished power

Here OA is E and the source is MGMAT...CAT 3
Here I took BEFORE as Simple Past ( as it shows some past time )//


In 1981 children in the United States spent an average of slightly less than two and a half hours a week doing household chores; by 1997 they had spent nearly six hours a week.
A. chores; by 1997 they had spent nearly six hours a week
B. chores; by 1997 that figure had grown to nearly six hours a week
C. chores, whereas nearly six hours a week were spent in 1997
D. chores, compared with a figure of nearly six hours a week in 1997
E. chores, that figure growing to nearly six hours a week in 1997


Here OA is B

How B ?
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by lunarpower » Sat Dec 19, 2009 10:38 pm
mmslf75 wrote:Before its independence in 1947, Britain ruled India as a colony and they would relinquish power only after a long struggle by the native people.

Before its independence in 1947, Britain ruled India as a colony and they would relinquish power
Before independence in 1947, Britain had ruled India as a colony and relinquished power
Before its independence in 1947, India was ruled by Britain as a colony and they relinquished power
Before independence in 1947, India had been ruled as a colony by Britain, which relinquished power
Before independence in 1947, India had been a colony of the British, who relinquished power

Here OA is E and the source is MGMAT...CAT 3
Here I took BEFORE as Simple Past ( as it shows some past time )//
in fact, i'd say that both tenses are fine on this one (for the same reason that both tenses are fine on the "beach resort / destruction" problem, above). again, it's a matter of emphasis.

note that (e) is the only answer choice that is also correct in all other respects, though. so this question is not problematic like the other one.
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.

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by lunarpower » Sat Dec 19, 2009 10:38 pm
--
In 1981 children in the United States spent an average of slightly less than two and a half hours a week doing household chores; by 1997 they had spent nearly six hours a week.
A. chores; by 1997 they had spent nearly six hours a week
B. chores; by 1997 that figure had grown to nearly six hours a week
C. chores, whereas nearly six hours a week were spent in 1997
D. chores, compared with a figure of nearly six hours a week in 1997
E. chores, that figure growing to nearly six hours a week in 1997


Here OA is B

How B ?
hmm. complicated.

tell ya what: best way to go here is to just memorize this as an idiom.

in clauses modified with "by TIME", you should use
the past perfect (had VERBed) if the time marker is in the past
the future perfect (will have VERBed) if the time marker is in the future
if the time marker is "by now", then you should use the present perfect, but that's unlikely to come up in a gmat problem.

so this is just an idiom.
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by mmslf75 » Sun Dec 20, 2009 8:09 am
lunarpower wrote:--
In 1981 children in the United States spent an average of slightly less than two and a half hours a week doing household chores; by 1997 they had spent nearly six hours a week.
A. chores; by 1997 they had spent nearly six hours a week
B. chores; by 1997 that figure had grown to nearly six hours a week
C. chores, whereas nearly six hours a week were spent in 1997
D. chores, compared with a figure of nearly six hours a week in 1997
E. chores, that figure growing to nearly six hours a week in 1997


Here OA is B

How B ?
hmm. complicated.

tell ya what: best way to go here is to just memorize this as an idiom.

in clauses modified with "by TIME", you should use
the past perfect (had VERBed) if the time marker is in the past
the future perfect (will have VERBed) if the time marker is in the future
if the time marker is "by now", then you should use the present perfect, but that's unlikely to come up in a gmat problem.

so this is just an idiom.
Thanks RON,
Query 1
But how does an event that occured in 1997 take PAST PERFECT, whereas an event that occured in 1981 takes PRESENT PERFECT ?
Query 2

I know why A is wrong .. IT cannot stand for PROFITS.
I will like to know when does one use INCREASED OR HAVE INCREASED here.?

"HAVE" stands for a present perfect.. indicating that the sentence was written immediately at the end of 3 months..(if so)
How does one know which option to pick here ?
Can you list some specifics for deciding on PRESENT PERFECT tense, as was done for PAST PERFECT above.

Link to question...
https://www.beatthegmat.com/company-prof ... 14316.html


The results of the company's cost- cutting measures are evident in its profits, which increased five percent during the first three months of this year after it fell over the last two years.
A. which increased five percent during the first three months of this year after it fell
B. which had increased five percent during the first three months of this year after it had fallen
C. which have increased five percent during the first three months of this year after falling
D. with a five percent increase during the first three months of this year after falling
E. with a five percent increase during the first three months of this year after
having fallen

OA is C

Secondly, "falling over last 2 years " is it acceptable ?
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by lunarpower » Sun Dec 20, 2009 2:17 pm
mmslf75 wrote: Query 1
But how does an event that occured in 1997 take PAST PERFECT, whereas an event that occured in 1981 takes PRESENT PERFECT ?
idiomatic usage demands that you use the past perfect with "by 1997".

note also that these are two separate clauses; the second clause can actually stand on its own, with the verb in past perfect and 1997 as the later time marker.
here's another example of the same thing:
As of 1991, Bob Beamon's long-jump world record had stood for 23 years.
this sentence is correct, even though there's no verb in the simple past tense; instead, 1991 itself serves as the second time marker. because that time marker is there, you don't need a simple-past verb.

the same thing is going on in the correct answer here: we have TWO SEPARATE STATEMENTS. the first (the statement about 1981) is just a statement about a statistic that was true at a certain point in time. the second (which can stand independently) is a statement in which the past perfect is used before a time marker instead of a past-tense verb.

hope that helps.
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by lunarpower » Sun Dec 20, 2009 2:17 pm
Query 2

I know why A is wrong .. IT cannot stand for PROFITS.
I will like to know when does one use INCREASED OR HAVE INCREASED here.?

"HAVE" stands for a present perfect.. indicating that the sentence was written immediately at the end of 3 months..(if so)
How does one know which option to pick here ?
i addressed this above: in this problem, you simply don't have the context to choose one or the other. since we don't know when the sentence was written, we can't decisively pick either option.
so, you'll just have to use some other criterion to eliminate.

takeaway:
NOT EVERY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ANSWER CHOICES WILL LEAD TO AN ELIMINATION.
there are many instances in which there's a "split" between/among answer choices, but more than one version is correct. this is one such instance.

Can you list some specifics for deciding on PRESENT PERFECT tense, as was done for PAST PERFECT above.
see here
https://www.beatthegmat.com/comma-that-n ... tml#210193
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by lunarpower » Sun Dec 20, 2009 2:29 pm
Secondly, "falling over last 2 years " is it acceptable ?
it's an official problem (from gmatprep), and "falling over the last two years" is in the correct answer. so... you already know the answer to this question.
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by mmslf75 » Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:10 am
lunarpower wrote:
mmslf75 wrote: Query 1
But how does an event that occured in 1997 take PAST PERFECT, whereas an event that occured in 1981 takes PRESENT PERFECT ?
idiomatic usage demands that you use the past perfect with "by 1997".

note also that these are two separate clauses; the second clause can actually stand on its own, with the verb in past perfect and 1997 as the later time marker.
here's another example of the same thing:
As of 1991, Bob Beamon's long-jump world record had stood for 23 years.
this sentence is correct, even though there's no verb in the simple past tense; instead, 1991 itself serves as the second time marker. because that time marker is there, you don't need a simple-past verb.

the same thing is going on in the correct answer here: we have TWO SEPARATE STATEMENTS. the first (the statement about 1981) is just a statement about a statistic that was true at a certain point in time. the second (which can stand independently) is a statement in which the past perfect is used before a time marker instead of a past-tense verb.

hope that helps.
Oh that's a new thing I learnt today

Dont u think this is complicated a lil bit, i mean u require something more than basic knowledge to be able to differentiate between usage of past perfect..
INDEED, A VERY GOOD EXPLANATION, THANKS MAN u ROCK

Please confirm the takeaways here, for bothe PAST PERFECT and PRESENT PERFECT

--------------------------------------------------------------- PAST PERFECT -------------------------------------------------

examples you cited here for past perfect and in other thread will fall under different types
Right ??????

1) If u see "BY <year> " use PAST PERFECT and the <year> is seen as a time marker, so serves purpose of SIMPLE PAST

EXAMPLE 1:: In 1981 children in the United States spent an average of slightly less than two and a half hours a week doing household chores; by 1997 that figure had grown to nearly six hours a week
EXAMPLE 2:: As of 1991, Bob Beamon's long-jump world record had stood for 23 years.


2) When a process is described that persisted up some time in past

EXAMPLE 1:: In 1981 children in the United States spent an average of slightly less than two and a half hours a week doing household chores; by 1997 that figure had grown to nearly six hours a week
EXAMPLE 2:: As of 1991, Bob Beamon's long-jump world record had stood for 23 years.

3) The end result of process that occurred in the past is important

EXAMPLE 1:: Less than 35 years after the release of African honeybees outside Sao Paulo, Brazil, their descendants, popularly known as killer bees, had migrated as far north as southern Texas.
EXAMPLE 2:: Jesse had flown almost a million miles during those two years.
EXAMPLE 3 :: As of 1991, Bob Beamon's long-jump world record had stood for 23 years.

4) THE NORMAL USAGE ::
When you have a SIMPLE PAST present the other earlier action takes PAST PERFECT
EXAMPLE 1:: The train had departed by the time we arrived


-------------------------------- PRESENT PERFECT ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(1) events that have just ended/carryon / continue in the present

EXAMPLE :: I have been sick lately.


(2) past events that have some relevance to the present: DEPENDING on INTENT
EXAMPLE 1 :: i have been to argentina.
EXAMPLE 2 :: i went to argentina.
EXAMPLE 3 :: studies have shown..." or "X has/have said that


(3) idioms that demand the present perfect
"Since X, ...", the following clause MUST be in the present perfect.
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by hrishi19884 » Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:58 am
In 1981 children in the United States spent an average of slightly less than two and a half hours a week doing household chores; by 1997 they had spent nearly six hours a week.
A. chores; by 1997 they had spent nearly six hours a week
B. chores; by 1997 that figure had grown to nearly six hours a week
C. chores, whereas nearly six hours a week were spent in 1997
D. chores, compared with a figure of nearly six hours a week in 1997
E. chores, that figure growing to nearly six hours a week in 1997


Guys,

In the above question, one thing is sure that "had+verb" should come as the second event occurred after the first one.

So we can eliminate options C, D and E.

Now, A says that "they had spent nearly 6 hours a week" but it is the "average hours" which is compared in both this years and not the "number of hours". This statement doesn't seem to give a valid comparison.

B correctly compares the "average" in 1981 to "average" in 1997 with the use of word "figure".

Hence 'B' is the best choice.
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by Stacey Koprince » Sat Dec 26, 2009 9:22 am
mms - your summary looks good. I like to think of present perfect as something that bridges past and present, and it's either still going on or just simply still true today.

eg, I have been to Argentina

I'm not still there today, but it is still true today that I went there at some point. (Not really - I've never been to Argentina! And look what I did there - I used present perfect again, because it was true in the past and is still true today. I have never been there.)

Another example:
The results of the study have shown that the more we study, the smarter we get.

The study is over - but the results are still true today, as indicated by usage of the present perfect tense.
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by lunarpower » Sat Dec 26, 2009 11:03 pm
mmslf75 wrote: Dont u think this is complicated a lil bit, i mean u require something more than basic knowledge to be able to differentiate between usage of past perfect..
oh, sure. but that's the case in ALL languages.

think about your own language; the same is probably true. i.e., it's easy to tell which tense to use in most cases, but there will be cases in which the rules for deciding between tenses are extremely elaborate and very difficult to explain.

verb tense tends to be the most nuanced, subtle point of grammar in most languages; english is no different in this respect.

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your summary of points is pretty much accurate, yes.
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