What should I do to go from current 680 to 740+

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Hi
I took the gmat this 2nd March 2009 and got 680.

Q-47 V-37 AWA-5.5

I want to go for 740+ with Q-50, V-40+, as the school I am targetting are with mean 720+ and so want to have 20 points lead for better safety margin.

I am about to repeat the test in another 4-6 weeks, I am particularly frustrated with Quant side performance. In my last attempt I felt something fishy during the exam and thats it somehow pursuaded to appear for Verbal. So I somehow need to work on Math weaknesses to have a respectful score...I dont want to live with these fortis..

thanks in anticipation.
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by maihuna » Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:11 am
Please suggest me some strategy.

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by logitech » Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:15 am
I am targetting are with mean 720+ and so want to have 20 points lead for better safety margin.


I think you should instead focus on your application. 680 is good enough for any school, and that 20 point above the mean will not cover other areas in your application.

My two cents..
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by pJackson79 » Wed Mar 18, 2009 6:19 pm
logitech wrote:I think you should instead focus on your application. 680 is good enough for any school, and that 20 point above the mean will not cover other areas in your application.
I would respectfully disagree and say that the difference between 680 and 740 at a school like Stanford could be the thing that gets you an interview.

It looks like the verbal area is the problem for you. I would encourage you to go out and find as many verbal questions as possible (in a computerized format) so that you get used to working off a monitor--which is a different game than a paper and pencil (a la OG).
Last edited by pJackson79 on Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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by TedCornell » Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:19 am
Maihuna,

I would tend to agree with Jackson's assessment that the verbal side actuall gives you the greatest opportunity to improve within 6 weeks. Because worldwide the verbal section is not as competitive, an increase in verbal subscore will a greater affect on your GMAT than a comparable increase in quant subscore

Make it your goal to never miss more than 1 or possibly 2 sentence correction questions by learning the grammar and better yet, by learning how exactly it's tested.

1) If you don't already have it, consider getting the ManhattanGMAT SC guide and go through its lessons.

2) Get the gmatfix verbal flashcards (you can evaluate some for free); these cards are broken down into SC subtopics, with each topic giving you loads of examples and pinpointed lessons on how the topic is tested on the GMAT

3) Once you can go through the flashcards for a particular topic without error, use the Manhattan guide to find the specific questions in the OG that test the topic you're studying. Practice those questions and study the explanations carefully.

4) Take the GMATPrep tests (delete and retake) several times until you feel confident that the GMAT will have a very hard time tricking you in Sentence Correction.

If you really want to make the jump from 47 to 50 in quant, take the GMATPrep tests and carefully study the detailed explanations of the high end quant questions that give you trouble. GMATPrep doesn't include explanations but you can find explanations for the question you're looking for by running a search at gmatfix or here

Let us know how it goes. Best of luck!
Last edited by TedCornell on Thu Mar 19, 2009 11:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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by maihuna » Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:04 am
Thanks Ted and pjackson for encouraging words and nice suggestions...yes I will follow you people advice sincerely...I am not that week in Math but somehow got tricked, and definetly needs a lot of work to touch 50.
I have old version of Manhattan SC, I will have a look at your suggestions Ted. Do let me know any further advice that you think will help me improve.

Best Regards,
maihuna

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by logitech » Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:53 am
I would respectfully disagree and say that the difference between 680 and 740 at a school like Stanford could be the thing that gets you an interview.


Do you really, I mean SERIOUSLY, believe this ?
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by logitech » Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:55 am
TedCornell wrote:

Let us know how it goes. Best of luck!
Solid advice and tips!

Ted, you obviously are a big fan of this gmatfix.com can you share more about your experience with the users ?

Thanks,
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by TedCornell » Thu Mar 19, 2009 11:05 am
Logitech. Have you noticed? I pretty much swear by gmatfix and ManhattanGMAT as far as the GMAT is concerned :-)

what I've liked so much about gmatfix is that its products are designed to fill what I found to be a gap in other materials. It mainly tries to enhance the stuff you get from the official source.

ManhattanGMAT is great for its thoroughness. It really tries to get to the fundamental lessons. Their SC book is fantastic and their math guides are solid.

So yeah, I'm a big fan. I think pretty much anyone who uses the OG or GMATPrep should at least take a look at the gmatfix material, and anyone who wants to go above 600 should consider MGMAT materials. That's why I've been singing the praises of both these companies here.

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by maihuna » Fri Mar 20, 2009 6:17 am
logitech wrote:
I would respectfully disagree and say that the difference between 680 and 740 at a school like Stanford could be the thing that gets you an interview.


Do you really, I mean SERIOUSLY, believe this ?
Hi Logitech,
Yes, the institutes I am trying the difference in score will matter. I am an Computer Sc Engg with BE in 2000 ~80% and MTech from IIT Kgp in 2003 with 8.43 CGPA, I am working with some mnc and have around 7year work ex. I want to apply in IIMs ISB(PGPX -1yr) and a select few oversees(2-yr finance programs).

For all these institutes I dont have a very different strength except gmat, whatever I have done or doing is there, I have taken some NSE(India) certification and likelt to attempt for alternate investment certification (USA ) one, which is getting delayed due to my gmat, but I dont think such things will add much value, so gmat is my best bet,

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by Stacey Koprince » Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:45 pm
I received a PM asking me to respond.

First, I know you want to try for a higher score, but you should also congratulate yourself for getting a 680. That's a very good score.

It would be a good idea to post in the admissions consulting thread. Explain your situation and give the full details on your application profile (as you did above). Ask them what they think. As far as I'm aware, a lower GMAT score can keep you out but a higher one will not get you in. The schools tend to look for something other than GMAT or GPA as the "great thing" that lifts you above other candidates.

But, again, ask the admissions experts on that particular issue - my area of expertise is the GMAT.

I want to just make sure that you're aware of how very difficult it is to score 740+. Only about 2% of all test-takers score in that range. That doesn't mean you shouldn't go for it - but I just want to make sure you're aware that it is incredibly challenging to score at that level.

How had you been doing on your practice tests before you took the real thing? Was your score on the real thing (including the two subscores) about what you'd been doing on practice tests? Or higher or lower?

Also, some people above said that verbal looks like the 'problem area' for you - it's not. You're about even in both. The percentiles do not match to the same scaled scores on math and verbal. A 47 in quant is at about the same percentile as a 37 in verbal.

Ted also makes a good point though - the verbal tends to be weighted a bit more heavily in the overall score calculation than the quant, so you may want to spend a bit more time improving verbal than math. At the same time, do think about your own strengths and weaknesses; if, for example, this test represented a drop in your normal quant score and an increase in your normal verbal score, then it may be easier to try to get back to where you "should" have been on quant, while maintaining or only slightly increasing your verbal score.

I see that you got a very good essay score as well. When you took the practice tests, did you also take the essays? Did you spend as much time and mental energy on the practice essays as you did on the real essays? Did you take the practice tests under full official conditions? (30m each for two essays, 10m break, 75m quant, 10m break, 75m verbal)

If you did not always take the essays on practice tests or did not spend as much mental energy as you did during the test, know that part of your improvement is likely to come from improving your mental stamina - so do those essays from now on when you take practice tests.

At the same time, because you did so well on the essays the first time, you can afford to go for a slightly lower score next time. Go for a 5.0, don't use as much mental energy, and save up some of that stamina for the multiple choice portion of the test.

In order to figure out what to do for your next official test, you need to figure out what your strengths and weaknesses are right now. So make a list and let us know both strengths and weaknesses in:
- content (math formulas and concepts, grammar rules)
- technique (all five question types and sub-types; that is, the techniques you use to answer the different kinds of questions as presented on the GMAT)
- timing (all question types and content areas, as well as "global timing" or timing through an entire test section)

Also, what kind of errors do you tend to make?
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by pJackson79 » Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:14 am
Stacey Koprince wrote: Ted also makes a good point though - the verbal tends to be weighted a bit more heavily in the overall score calculation than the quant,
Stacy & Ted,

Thanks for this insight. I have never heard this before. Do either of you have any evidence to back it up (not that I doubt it per se, but I am curious). Thanks in advance!
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by Stacey Koprince » Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:05 am
We ask our students to report their scores (including sub-scores) to us. We have a lot of students, so we get a lot of data, and then we run analyses on that data to figure out what combinations of sub-scores lead to various scores on the 200-800 scale. We can't figure out from that data exactly how much verbal weighs more heavily into the final score, but we can figure out that it does weigh more heavily to some extent.

This also changes over time, because the "weighting" actually has to do with how the people taking the test perform - it's not the case that the test-writers have said, "let's count verbal more heavily than math" and then inserted something artificial into the algorithm. Basically, there are more people who fall into the "higher math, lower verbal" category than the reverse, because we all learned the same math in school, but some people learned languages other than English in school.

It's a lot more complicated than that statistically, obviously, but that's the basic idea.
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by maihuna » Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:08 am
Hi Stacey,
Many thanks for responding to my query in great details. Here is my scoring history and mistakes in different tests I took during my tests:
Prienston Tests:
Q 48 V 37 -690 => Without AWA and Writing
Q47 V 33 -650 =>With proper awa & writing
Q44 V 28 -590 => With double awa and essay
Q50 V 34 - 680 <==Without AWA&Eriting

Kaplan tests 650 with following details:
Date: 11/01/09
Q 46, V 36 - 650
In quant, wrong are 3, in verbal 14(CR-6, RC-4, SC-4).
Can any one please help me evaluating these, and let me know further about some more realistic practice tests apart from gmatprep

Veritas free test completed but coudnt saw results,
Manhattan Cats:
Free: 4 attempts all varrying 610 to 690
CAT1: Q 48, Wrong-14, DS-4, PS-10
V 39, Wrong -16, CR-5, Sc-7, Rc-4
710, 17th Jan 2009

CAT:2 Q 48 V 39 710, what is this
18th Jan-2009

CAT:3 Q 48 V 38 710, why manhattan? On 21st Jan

Cat:4 Q 48 V 40 720 On 23rd Jan
Q:10(PS-8, DS-2) V-12(S-2, CR-3, RC-5) : I need to focus on RCs

Manhattan Cat:5 Q 51 V 38 730 on 1st July
Wrong: Math-08(PS-03 DS-05)
Verbal-14(SC-6 CR-4 RC -4)

GMAT Preps 2
Q-50, V-34, total : 700(dissapointed)
Wrong: Q-8, DS-2, PS-6
Verbal: 12, SC-9, RC-3, CR0(many CR's were repeats)
Dont know when the hell will improve on SC:
Pattern of mistake: 3 in block, 2 in two blocks wrong..I need to kill such blocks...

Repeat GMAT Prep 2: 740(was looking to do better in quant)
Q 50, Wrong 7 PS-3 DS-4
V 40, Wrong 8 RC-2 SC-3 CR-2
(Many questions were repeat, one RC from previous exam, several CR some SC's, many math Q) What should I infer? Pathetically moving it seems...help me get 750+ in at least some of the tests boss...?

Second Repeat GMAT Prep 2: 770(was looking to do better in quant)
Q 51, Wrong 7 PS-0 DS-3
V 44, Wrong 6 RC-1 SC-4 CR-1
(Many questions were repeat, one RC from previous exam, two RC's from Gmatprep1 taken quite some time back, several CR some SC's, many math Q)

During the exam:
I did tried a first few questions very fast, and around 6th question found that difficulty level is not rising. So got nervous, after that became slow, and lost some time on some questions, Was asked 4 questions on mod and I think I did bad on them, I was normally getting good score in math, 47 is the least one I have got in any gmatprep nad manhattan tests.

In verbal I am doing many RC wrongs and some tough CR questions too get wrong, i m so so in sc.

Please let me know what all can I do?

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by Stacey Koprince » Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:51 pm
You mentioned whether you took the essays on your Princeton tests but not for the others. Just based on the Princeton tests, though, it's pretty clear that when you take the essays, your multiple choice score is not as high. So there's definitely a stamina issue going on that's causing at last part of the score drop. From now on, always do the essays on practice tests.

You also mentioned that you messed up the quant timing a bit - starting off too fast, then slowing down and losing time (and presumably having to rush as a result later in the test).

First - never try to assess your performance during the test based on how easy or hard you think the questions are. The difficulty levels are based on the entire population of test-takers. They do not match your individual strengths and weaknesses. For instance, I have some students who are very good at combinatorics and they panic when they see what they consider an "easy" combinatorics question. But most people are not good at combinatorics at all, so what is an "easy" question if you really know combinatorics is actually a decently harder question for the general population of test-takers. Also - don't forget the experimental questions, which can come at any level. You may see a genuinely easy question... and it may be an experimental, in which case the difficulty has nothing to do with your performance.

Second - You can re-take tests as long as you follow a few guidelines to minimize the chance of artificially inflating your score via question repeats. First, anytime you see a problem that you remember (and this means: I know the answer or I'm pretty sure I remember the answer, not just "hmm, this looks familiar..."), immediately look at the timer and make yourself sit there for the full length of time for that question type. This way, you don't artificially give yourself more time than you should have. Second, think about whether you got this problem right the last time. If you did, get it right again this time. If you didn't, get it wrong again. If you *completely honestly* think that you would get it right this time around if it were a new question (even though you got it wrong last time) because you've studied that area and improved, then get it right this time.

Third - you list the number of problems wrong in the 3 verbal question types on the exams, but the # wrong isn't the sole indicator of what's going on. For instance, if you have more SCs wrong on a particular test, but you also happened to get more 700+ SC questions, then that doesn't necessarily mean that SC is a problem - you got more wrong because you had more hard questions. Further, why did you get a question wrong? You may have gotten some questions wrong because you were running out of time and couldn't spend the full time you should have. In that case, there may be no problem with that question; the problem is the time you lost on some earlier question (and maybe you got that one right, so you're not even counting it in your calculations!).

A better way to assess the data:
- count the questions you got wrong that are below the level you're scoring. In your case, you're scoring in the high 600s, so everything labeled sub-700.
- count the questions on which you spent more than 30sec longer than you should have (even if you got them right)
- count the questions on which you under-spent your time by at least 30sec on SC or 45sec on other types (even if you got them right)

What does that data tell you? Also review each individual question to figure out lots of things:
- if you got it wrong, why? what tempted you to pick the wrong answer? why is it wrong anyway? what tempted you to eliminate the right answer? why is it right anyway?
- if you spent too much time, why? specifically, which part of the problem? did that extra time help? did that extra time hurt on a later problem? (if you spent more than 30sec over, the answer is yes, even if you got this problem right) how did that extra time hurt? specifically, where did you then not have enough time?
- if you spent too little time, why? were you rushing b/c you were behind? why were you behind; on which ones did you spend too much time? or did you think the problem was easy and you didn't need that much time? how often did you make mistakes on those "easy" problems on which you felt you didn't need full time? (On problems like that, you should make almost no mistakes - 95%+ accuracy. So if it's anything lower than that, you're hurting yourself by choosing to go fast when you think a problem is really easy.)

Also, dig deeper than just SC, CR, and RC. Analyze your performances based on the different SC grammar rules and the different question types in CR and RC.

That's a lot, so I'm going to stop here for now. If you can do the above, then you will not only really understand your strengths and weaknesses, but you will also be able to figure out how to turn those weaknesses into strengths - and that's what it's going to take to score 750+. So try to dig into that and come back and tell us what you discover. Also, if you need help figuring out how to turn specific weaknesses into strengths, come back and ask - that's why we're here!
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