Sound can travel through water for enormous distances,

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by akhpad » Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:23 am
First you should understand absolute modifier and then you can understand option C better. In fact, you should be able to distinguish between absolute and appositive phrase.

Please refer Stacey and Ron's explanation for C.

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by ssgmatter » Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:29 am
akhp77 wrote:First you should understand absolute modifier and then you can understand option C better. In fact, you should be able to distinguish between absolute and appositive phrase.

Please refer Stacey and Ron's explanation for C.
Dear Akhilesh,

I understand the absolute modifier pretty well....and how it is used....However, I am not able to apply the concept to option C here....So can you please help me understand the option C.....

Regards,
Phil
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by akhpad » Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:03 am
C:
Sound can travel through water for enormous distances, its acoustic energy prevented from dissipating by boundaries in the ocean created by water layers of different temperatures and densities.


Why does Sound travel through water for enormous distances?
Ans => because its acoustic energy was prevented by X

"its acoustic energy" is a noun and "prevented ....." is a noun modifier.

Noun plus noun modifier is the structure of absolute phrase.

Sound can travel through water for enormous distances because its acoustic energy was prevented.

"its acoustic energy" modifies to previous clause.

Please correct me if anything wrong here.

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by pradeepkaushal9518 » Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:11 am
i think E is correct.

i question on use of "prevented".

sound always travel its a scientific truth so how can we use past tense

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by lunarpower » Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:50 pm
pradeepkaushal9518 wrote:i think E is correct.

i question on use of "prevented".

sound always travel its a scientific truth so how can we use past tense
this is an official problem (it's on gmat prep, and it's also #108 in the OG verbal supplement 2nd edition). the correct answer is (c).

i'm not sure whether you were aware that this is an official problem. if you were aware of this fact, then take note:
do not question the official answers to official problems.
(if you weren't aware that this problem is official, then your confusion is understandable.)

this is not an example of a past-tense verb; it's a past participle, used in what's called an "absolute phrase".
i posted about this earlier in this thread:
https://www.beatthegmat.com/sound-can-tr ... tml#244781

your confusion is understandable, since
(a) if this were a past-tense verb, it would be spelled the same way;
(b) this form (absolute phrase) is impossible in spoken language, so, if you listen to your "ear", you'll mistakenly infer that it is wrong.
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.

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by ssgmatter » Fri Jun 04, 2010 7:10 am
akhp77 wrote:C:
Sound can travel through water for enormous distances, its acoustic energy prevented from dissipating by boundaries in the ocean created by water layers of different temperatures and densities.


Why does Sound travel through water for enormous distances?
Ans => because its acoustic energy was prevented by X

"its acoustic energy" is a noun and "prevented ....." is a noun modifier.

Noun plus noun modifier is the structure of absolute phrase.

Sound can travel through water for enormous distances because its acoustic energy was prevented.

"its acoustic energy" modifies to previous clause.

Please correct me if anything wrong here.
Dear Akhilesh,

Thankyou for making me understand this.

So for as of now I will take noun with noun modifier as explained in your post.

I think for such question type the best strategy would be to memorize the pattern because I believe almost more than 90% of junta must have selected E for sure on this one.

What do you say?
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by lunarpower » Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:03 am
ssgmatter wrote:I think for such question type the best strategy would be to memorize the pattern because I believe almost more than 90% of junta must have selected E for sure on this one.
actually, "memorize the pattern" -- to the extent that this is possible -- is easily the BEST way to analyze any issues involving the greater structure of the sentence (e.g., run-ons/fragments; absolute phrases, like this one; distinguishing between clauses/phrases/modifiers; etc.)

there are two very solid reasons for this sort of approach.

1) this is the ONLY way that humans normally learn language. think about how people pick up their native language as kids: they just listen to, and read, zillions and zillions of sentences, until the format of those sentences is absolutely imprinted upon their brains.

2) most of the sentences are complicated, to an extent such that you just won't have the time to perform a formal analysis of the greater structure of the sentence.
remember that the time pressure on this test is EXTREME -- especially for second-language speakers of english. you simply won't have the time to analyze and classify every modifier, clause, phrase, etc. in the choices -- especially bearing in mind the fact that you are also responsible for understanding the context of the sentence.

it's ok to perform this sort of formal analysis while you STUDY the problems -- in order to provide some degree of justification for which constructions are correct and which are incorrect -- but not while you are SOLVING them; that's just not realistic from a time-management standpoint.

for large-scale sentence construction, you should try to get to the point where, with constructions such as this one, you can confidently say "that construction is ok" or "that construction is not ok" -- WITHOUT HAVING TO ANALYZE ALL THE GRAMMAR IN THE CONSTRUCTION.

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the above is NOT, of course, meant to say that you shouldn't use any formal analysis.
for constructions requiring the isolation of SMALL, PARTICULAR ELEMENTS of the sentence -- including, but not limited to, parallelism, subject-verb, and pronoun issues -- you should absolutely use formal analysis while you solve the problems.
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.

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by sars72 » Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:11 am
sumanr84 wrote:kevincanspain,

I really appreciate your help in resolving queries on BTG. However, what I have noted is that you usually give a thinking answer for a problem that leaves most of us unclear about the correct answer for the problem at hand.

Its good that you promote us to think and derive the answer ourselves but if you could provide an absolute answer for the problem at hand, at least in Spoiler that would really help us !!
actually, i like kevin's modus operandi; it goes beyond the question at hand, and he tries to explain the problem using a different and shorter (therefore, easier) set of sentences.. dont you change one bit, kevin :)

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by Stacey Koprince » Wed Jun 09, 2010 7:47 am
I'm going to back Kevin up here, too. The best use of the forums (or any help from an expert) is NOT for the expert to simply tell you the right answer - even if the expert also tells you why it's the right answer.

The best way to study is for you to go through the struggle of figuring things out for yourself. What you're doing here is learning how to think about the GMAT, not just how to do the one problem in front of you right now.

Why? Because that one problem is not going to be on the test. None of the problems you study will ever be on the real test. Similar problems will be, maybe, but not that one - and the similarities might be so hard to spot that you won't even realize this new problem is similar to some practice problem you did. (That's part of the trick / task.) You actually need to train your brain in how to think through a new, never-before-seen problem in the same way the experts do (or a similar way at least). You need to learn how to study, how to find and correct your own mistakes, how to know what to do when you don't know what to do, etc. You need to get to the point where you can actually recognize what to do on some percentage of the new problems that you see - you recognize it even though you've never actually seen this problem before. And none of that is going to come from someone simply giving you the answer.

Obviously, there are different levels of scores, and so there are different requirements in terms of the level of expertise you need to acquire to reach your goal score. You don't necessarily need to learn to think exactly the way an expert thinks, unless you are going for an expert-level score. But you do need some of it! :)
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by ansumania » Mon Jul 26, 2010 4:54 pm
Stacey Koprince wrote:Received a PM asking me to respond.

This is an OG question, so I can't discuss it directly, but I can discuss a similar sentence that I make up... :)

The debate here is between these two "types" of sentences:

1) Light can travel through space for huge distances, its energy prevented from dissipating by X.

2) Light can travel through space for huge distances, preventing its energy from dissipating by X.


Let's start with #1.
The word "prevented" can be a regular conjugated verb or it can be a participle. If it's a participle, it can be part of a verb form (with another conjugated verb before it) or it can indicate a modifier. Examples of the two verb options:

"prevented" as regular conjugated verb: I prevented my paper from blowing away.

Conjugated verb + "prevented" participle: My paper was prevented from blowing away. (The paper was prevented by me.)

Now, what is the difference in those two sentence constructions? The first is active; the second is passive. In the first, the subject (I) is doing the action (prevented). In the second, the subject (paper) is having the action performed on it (I'm still doing the preventing, not the paper).

Could I write: "The paper prevented from blowing away" - meaning, the paper prevented itself from blowing away? Nope. The paper can't prevent itself from blowing away. :) If we want to use "the paper" as the subject, we have to write this in passive voice.

So. Energy prevented from dissipating by X. Is that a sentence? Can the energy prevent itself from dissipating? No, again. If we want to use "energy" as a subject and have an independent clause here, we have to write this in passive voice, which would be "the energy WAS prevented from dissipating by X."

What does that mean? That word "prevented" is not a conjugated verb or part of a conjugated verb form in this sentence. Therefore, it's a modifier and the stuff after the comma in C is NOT an independent clause - it's the rest of the modifier.

Now, #2.
2) Light can travel through space for huge distances, preventing its energy from dissipating by X.

We have <independent clause>, <-ing modifier>. The -ing modifier needs to modify the preceding clause. Also, the modifier needs to follow from the independent clause; that is, something in the independent clause needs to be doing this "preventing." What is doing this preventing?

Argh. It's the stuff after the word "by." That's not part of the independent clause. Nothing in the independent clause is responsible for "preventing the energy from dissipating." This is a misplaced modifier.

If it's too confusing to understand based on the example above, try this:

Paper can fly through the air for huge distances, preventing it from falling by gusts of wind.

What's preventing the paper from falling? The gusts of wind. But the "preventing" has to refer to the stuff *before* the comma. Nothing *before* the comma is actually preventing the paper from falling.
had the second sentence been "Light can travel through space for huge distances, preventing its energy from being dissipated by X" would it have been correct? Pl. comment

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by Stacey Koprince » Fri Jul 30, 2010 1:21 pm
had the second sentence been "Light can travel through space for huge distances, preventing its energy from being dissipated by X" would it have been correct? Pl. comment
I'm a little confused. You said "HAD the second sentence been" (the above). But that IS exactly what the second sentence was in my example. Everything after my second example (in my previous post) explains why that one was wrong.

Did you mean to edit that second sentence in some way but forgot to do so?
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by ansumania » Fri Jul 30, 2010 3:47 pm
Stacey Koprince wrote:
had the second sentence been "Light can travel through space for huge distances, preventing its energy from being dissipated by X" would it have been correct? Pl. comment
I'm a little confused. You said "HAD the second sentence been" (the above). But that IS exactly what the second sentence was in my example. Everything after my second example (in my previous post) explains why that one was wrong.

Did you mean to edit that second sentence in some way but forgot to do so?
Stacey, I meant second part of the same sentence. pl. see below.

"Light can travel through space for huge distances, preventing its energy from being dissipated by X"

I modified the undelined part a bit. I want to say that now we can say that the ', ing modifier ' acting as an adverbial modifier. Pl. reply.

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by Stacey Koprince » Wed Aug 04, 2010 11:05 am
Light can travel through space for huge distances, preventing its energy from being dissipated by X
Nope. :) A "comma -ing" modifier is already an adverbial modifier. Your task is to see whether it's actually used correctly. The action described by that -ing word, plus whatever follows, should modify the preceding main clause.

In this case, we've got ", preventing" as the start of the modifier and "light can travel" as the main clause. Light can travel, preventing <something from happening>. This means "the fact that light can travel" is preventing <something from happening>. But that's not what the sentence says - X is what prevents <something from happening>.

If you're going to use "comma preventing," then whatever is DOING the preventing has to be part of the main clause. As long as you have "by X" at the end, then - well, it's at the end, not part of the main clause.
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by uwhusky » Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:01 pm
What a fun question! Do you know that this question was extracted from a New York Times article?

https://www.nytimes.com/1998/10/27/scien ... spute.html

Fun fun fun, and the article was written similar to answer A and B, which are incorrect.

And wow, did you know that the OG actually said that NYT's grammar is incorrect?!

Going beyond that, my question is, what's the difference between A and D's usage of "participle" without subject and "subject" + "participle"?

Is A always wrong because it is lacking a noun, which is required in the absolute phrase? Is there anything else wrong with A?
Yep.

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by niksworth » Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:10 pm
uwhusky wrote: And wow, did you know that the OG actually said that NYT's grammar is incorrect?!
I have seen other instances of incorrectness of NYT's grammar. I wouldn't fret too much over it. Its normally high editorial standards are bound put slip sometimes, considering the amount of news they process.
uwhusky wrote: Going beyond that, my question is, what's the difference between A and D's usage of "participle" without subject and "subject" + "participle"?

Is A always wrong because it is lacking a noun, which is required in the absolute phrase?
Bang on! The absolute phrase, by definition, has a noun and its modifiers (a participle in this case)
uwhusky wrote: Is there anything else wrong with A?
Use of as a result of changes meaning. Its acoustic energy is prevented from dissipating by boundary layers and not as a result of boundary layers.

Here the the boundary layers directly prevent the dissipation. Using as a result of would mean that the dissipation is prevented by something but as a result of the presence of boundary layer. The shift in meaning in subtle but pertinent.
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