• Magoosh
    Magoosh
    Study with Magoosh GMAT prep

    Available with Beat the GMAT members only code

    MORE DETAILS
    Magoosh
  • Veritas Prep
    Free Veritas GMAT Class
    Experience Lesson 1 Live Free

    Available with Beat the GMAT members only code

    MORE DETAILS
    Veritas Prep
  • EMPOWERgmat Slider
    1 Hour Free
    BEAT THE GMAT EXCLUSIVE

    Available with Beat the GMAT members only code

    MORE DETAILS
    EMPOWERgmat Slider
  • PrepScholar GMAT
    5 Day FREE Trial
    Study Smarter, Not Harder

    Available with Beat the GMAT members only code

    MORE DETAILS
    PrepScholar GMAT
  • Varsity Tutors
    Award-winning private GMAT tutoring
    Register now and save up to $200

    Available with Beat the GMAT members only code

    MORE DETAILS
    Varsity Tutors
  • e-gmat Exclusive Offer
    Get 300+ Practice Questions
    25 Video lessons and 6 Webinars for FREE

    Available with Beat the GMAT members only code

    MORE DETAILS
    e-gmat Exclusive Offer
  • Kaplan Test Prep
    Free Practice Test & Review
    How would you score if you took the GMAT

    Available with Beat the GMAT members only code

    MORE DETAILS
    Kaplan Test Prep
  • Target Test Prep
    5-Day Free Trial
    5-day free, full-access trial TTP Quant

    Available with Beat the GMAT members only code

    MORE DETAILS
    Target Test Prep
  • The Princeton Review
    FREE GMAT Exam
    Know how you'd score today for $0

    Available with Beat the GMAT members only code

    MORE DETAILS
    The Princeton Review
  • Economist Test Prep
    Free Trial & Practice Exam
    BEAT THE GMAT EXCLUSIVE

    Available with Beat the GMAT members only code

    MORE DETAILS
    Economist Test Prep

That vs those

This topic has 3 expert replies and 8 member replies

That vs those

Post
I have a lil confusion about the use of that

As per grammer, "that" is a relative prounoun and it can be singular as well as plural.

and in the following question :
Since 1986 enrollments of African Americans, American Indians, and Hispanic Americans in fulltime engineering programs in the United States has steadily increased, while the number of other students who enter the field has fallen.(A) has steadily increased, while the number of other students who enter the field has fallen
(B) has steadily increased, while other students entering the field have declined in number
(C) increased steadily, while there was a decline in the number of other students entering the field
(D) have steadily increased, while the number of other students entering the field has fallen
(E) have steadily increased, while that of other students who enter the field fell

The official explanation says : [E] - that should be the plural those

and in the following example:

"The peaks of a mountain range, acting like rocks in a streambed, produce ripples in the air flowing over them: the resulting flow pattern, with crests and toughs that remain stationary although the air that forms them is moving rapidly, are known as "standing waves."

that clearly refers to the compound subject which is plural and hence we correctly used remain

Pls explain where am i going wrong ?

  • +1 Upvote Post
  • Quote
  • Flag
Legendary Member Default Avatar
Joined
16 Apr 2008
Posted:
1159 messages
Upvotes:
56
Target GMAT Score:
750+
Post
Firstly,

An amazing question!!! Idea Smile

IMO:

in the first sentence:

That a relative pronoun is not used as a relative pronoun but as a demonstative pronoun

In demonstrative pronoun:

That ,with its plural those ,is used to avoid repetition of a preceding noun.

Eg:Our soldiers were better drilled than those of enemies.

(Source:Wren and martin)

Point to note:"That is used preferably with reference to persons"
(source :wren and martin)
(Though this point is not applicable over here. Wink )

Secondly,
the tricky part of the second question is...

the resulting flow pattern(singular ) is joined(& tricked Wink ) using the preposition with with plural compound word crests and toughs, is the object to which relative pronoun that is refering to...


thus the pronoun "that " is used in the second sentence...


i hope this helps!!!


thx

  • +1 Upvote Post
  • Quote
  • Flag
Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts
Joined
01 Oct 2008
Posted:
35 messages
Upvotes:
6
Post
"That" can replace a noun in a comparison when the noun in the singular. "Those" can replace a noun in a comparison when the noun is plural.

_________________
700+ your target then check out my 800 gmat blog here:
https://800gmatblog.zoxic.com

  • +1 Upvote Post
  • Quote
  • Flag

GMAT/MBA Expert

GMAT Instructor
Joined
03 Mar 2008
Posted:
3380 messages
Followed by:
1488 members
Upvotes:
2256
GMAT Score:
800
Post
Jatinder wrote:
I have a lil confusion about the use of that

As per grammer, "that" is a relative prounoun and it can be singular as well as plural.

and in the following question :
Since 1986 enrollments of African Americans, American Indians, and Hispanic Americans in fulltime engineering programs in the United States has steadily increased, while the number of other students who enter the field has fallen.(A) has steadily increased, while the number of other students who enter the field has fallen
(B) has steadily increased, while other students entering the field have declined in number
(C) increased steadily, while there was a decline in the number of other students entering the field
(D) have steadily increased, while the number of other students entering the field has fallen
(E) have steadily increased, while that of other students who enter the field fell

The official explanation says : [E] - that should be the plural those

and in the following example:

"The peaks of a mountain range, acting like rocks in a streambed, produce ripples in the air flowing over them: the resulting flow pattern, with crests and toughs that remain stationary although the air that forms them is moving rapidly, are known as "standing waves."

that clearly refers to the compound subject which is plural and hence we correctly used remain

Pls explain where am i going wrong ?
so, where are you actually going wrong?
you haven't actually listed any mistakes on your part.

the only things you've said so far are:
* "that" should be "those" in the first problem (pronoun that's part of a parallel construction - since it's parallel to a plural noun, it should be plural)
* "that" in the second problem is a relative pronoun referring to "crests and troughs", and should therefore be plural

you haven't actually given any indication that you were wrong about anything!

what were you wrong about?

_________________
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.

--

Pueden hacerle preguntas a Ron en castellano
Potete chiedere domande a Ron in italiano
On peut poser des questions à Ron en français
Voit esittää kysymyksiä Ron:lle myös suomeksi

--

Quand on se sent bien dans un vêtement, tout peut arriver. Un bon vêtement, c'est un passeport pour le bonheur.

Yves Saint-Laurent

--

Learn more about ron

  • +1 Upvote Post
  • Quote
  • Flag
Free Manhattan Prep online events - The first class of every online Manhattan Prep course is free. Classes start every week.
Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts Default Avatar
Joined
30 Sep 2008
Posted:
280 messages
Upvotes:
5
Target GMAT Score:
760
GMAT Score:
610
Post
lunarpower wrote:
Jatinder wrote:
I have a lil confusion about the use of that

As per grammer, "that" is a relative prounoun and it can be singular as well as plural.

and in the following question :
Since 1986 enrollments of African Americans, American Indians, and Hispanic Americans in fulltime engineering programs in the United States has steadily increased, while the number of other students who enter the field has fallen.(A) has steadily increased, while the number of other students who enter the field has fallen
(B) has steadily increased, while other students entering the field have declined in number
(C) increased steadily, while there was a decline in the number of other students entering the field
(D) have steadily increased, while the number of other students entering the field has fallen
(E) have steadily increased, while that of other students who enter the field fell

The official explanation says : [E] - that should be the plural those and in the following example:

"The peaks of a mountain range, acting like rocks in a streambed, produce ripples in the air flowing over them: the resulting flow pattern, with crests and toughs that remain stationary although the air that forms them is moving rapidly, are known as "standing waves."

that clearly refers to the compound subject which is plural and hence we correctly used remain

Pls explain where am i going wrong ?
so, where are you actually going wrong?
you haven't actually listed any mistakes on your part.

the only things you've said so far are:
* "that" should be "those" in the first problem (pronoun that's part of a parallel construction - since it's parallel to a plural noun, it should be plural)
* "that" in the second problem is a relative pronoun referring to "crests and troughs", and should therefore be plural

you haven't actually given any indication that you were wrong about anything!

what were you wrong about?
Question is: if that can refer to singular and plural then why the official explanation says that should be those ?

  • +1 Upvote Post
  • Quote
  • Flag
Legendary Member Default Avatar
Joined
27 Aug 2008
Posted:
1035 messages
Followed by:
1 members
Upvotes:
104
Post
1) we need those for the option E in the first sentence, those refers to the enrollments which is plural. it is used to substitute for the enrollments

2) when we use crests and trough that remain stationary we are actually modifying the crests and trough, that here is a restrictive clause and not a pronoun to substitute for the crests and trough. if one used those here it wouldnt make sense

  • +1 Upvote Post
  • Quote
  • Flag

GMAT/MBA Expert

GMAT Instructor
Joined
03 Mar 2008
Posted:
3380 messages
Followed by:
1488 members
Upvotes:
2256
GMAT Score:
800
Post
Jatinder wrote:
Question is: if that can refer to singular and plural then why the official explanation says that should be those ?
the word that is being used in two different ways in the two sentences.

in the first sentence, it's being used as what's called a demonstrative pronoun. if i were you, i wouldn't bother memorizing that term; rather, i would just memorize this:
when that is a PRONOUN that forms the second part of a PARALLEL CONSTRUCTION, it needs to match the number (singular / plural) of its counterpart in the first half of the parallel construction.
that's a bit verbose, but i trust that you can see what i'm talking about. in the referenced post, "those" is parallel to "enrollments", which is a plural noun; therefore, it must be plural.

in the second sentence, it's being used at what's called a relative pronoun. in this case, there's no parallel construction; rather, it's just a construction along the lines of "the car that was in my driveway."
try to make this construction with "those"; i think you'll agree that it's ridiculous.

_________________
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.

--

Pueden hacerle preguntas a Ron en castellano
Potete chiedere domande a Ron in italiano
On peut poser des questions à Ron en français
Voit esittää kysymyksiä Ron:lle myös suomeksi

--

Quand on se sent bien dans un vêtement, tout peut arriver. Un bon vêtement, c'est un passeport pour le bonheur.

Yves Saint-Laurent

--

Learn more about ron

  • +1 Upvote Post
  • Quote
  • Flag
Free Manhattan Prep online events - The first class of every online Manhattan Prep course is free. Classes start every week.
Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts Default Avatar
Joined
30 Sep 2008
Posted:
280 messages
Upvotes:
5
Target GMAT Score:
760
GMAT Score:
610
Post
Thanks Ron.
I understood now.

  • +1 Upvote Post
  • Quote
  • Flag
Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts Default Avatar
Joined
06 Mar 2009
Posted:
371 messages
Upvotes:
27
Test Date:
dec-4-09
Target GMAT Score:
750
GMAT Score:
740
Post
lunarpower wrote:
Jatinder wrote:
Question is: if that can refer to singular and plural then why the official explanation says that should be those ?
the word that is being used in two different ways in the two sentences.

in the first sentence, it's being used as what's called a demonstrative pronoun. if i were you, i wouldn't bother memorizing that term; rather, i would just memorize this:
when that is a PRONOUN that forms the second part of a PARALLEL CONSTRUCTION, it needs to match the number (singular / plural) of its counterpart in the first half of the parallel construction.
that's a bit verbose, but i trust that you can see what i'm talking about. in the referenced post, "those" is parallel to "enrollments", which is a plural noun; therefore, it must be plural.

in the second sentence, it's being used at what's called a relative pronoun. in this case, there's no parallel construction; rather, it's just a construction along the lines of "the car that was in my driveway."
try to make this construction with "those"; i think you'll agree that it's ridiculous.
Great explanation...and if we apply your logic(correct me if i am not applying it correctly) then I think Jatinder made a point when he said that choice E in the first question should have "Those" and not "That"...isn't it a parallel construction..??? and the pronoun should match in no.

  • +1 Upvote Post
  • Quote
  • Flag

GMAT/MBA Expert

GMAT Instructor
Joined
03 Mar 2008
Posted:
3380 messages
Followed by:
1488 members
Upvotes:
2256
GMAT Score:
800
Post
2010gmat wrote:
Great explanation...and if we apply your logic(correct me if i am not applying it correctly) then I think Jatinder made a point when he said that choice E in the first question should have "Those" and not "That"...isn't it a parallel construction..??? and the pronoun should match in no.
if anything, yes, it should be "those" ... because it refers to the word "enrollments", which is plural.
under no circumstances can a singular pronoun stand for a plural noun, or vice versa.

maybe you're missing the fact that (e) is one of the wrong answers...?
note that there are other things wrong with (e), too; for instance, the verb tenses aren't parallel. the first clause uses the present perfect, while the second clause uses the simple past. since the two changes are concurrent, this mismatch is not acceptable.

the correct answer to that question is, presumably, (d). this is the only answer choice that contains proper subject-verb agreement (enrollments ... have) AND parallel verb tenses (has increased / has fallen).

_________________
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.

--

Pueden hacerle preguntas a Ron en castellano
Potete chiedere domande a Ron in italiano
On peut poser des questions à Ron en français
Voit esittää kysymyksiä Ron:lle myös suomeksi

--

Quand on se sent bien dans un vêtement, tout peut arriver. Un bon vêtement, c'est un passeport pour le bonheur.

Yves Saint-Laurent

--

Learn more about ron

  • +1 Upvote Post
  • Quote
  • Flag
Free Manhattan Prep online events - The first class of every online Manhattan Prep course is free. Classes start every week.
Newbie | Next Rank: 10 Posts Default Avatar
Joined
25 Jun 2018
Posted:
9 messages
Post
  • +1 Upvote Post
  • Quote
  • Flag
Newbie | Next Rank: 10 Posts
Joined
13 Sep 2018
Posted:
2 messages
Post
Quote:
"That" can replace a noun in a comparison when the noun in the singular. "Those" can replace a noun in a comparison when the noun is plural.
Thanks, I understand now!

  • +1 Upvote Post
  • Quote
  • Flag

Top First Responders*

1 Jay@ManhattanReview 83 first replies
2 Brent@GMATPrepNow 68 first replies
3 fskilnik 55 first replies
4 GMATGuruNY 36 first replies
5 ceilidh.erickson 13 first replies
* Only counts replies to topics started in last 30 days
See More Top Beat The GMAT Members

Most Active Experts

1 image description fskilnik

GMAT Teacher

199 posts
2 image description Brent@GMATPrepNow

GMAT Prep Now Teacher

160 posts
3 image description Scott@TargetTestPrep

Target Test Prep

109 posts
4 image description Jay@ManhattanReview

Manhattan Review

95 posts
5 image description GMATGuruNY

The Princeton Review Teacher

90 posts
See More Top Beat The GMAT Experts