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by FightWithGMAT » Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:06 am
lunarpower wrote:in general,

1 * if you have than/as + subject + FORM OF "TO BE" as the second half of a comparison, then you must have another form of "to be" in the first half of the comparison.

2 * if you have than/as + subject + HELPING VERB as the second half of a comparison, then you must have the SAME helping verb
(perhaps in a different tense) in the first half of the comparison.

3 * if you have than/as + subject + FORM OF "TO DO" as the second half of a comparison, then you must have an ACTION VERB
(or another form of "to do") in the first half of the comparison.

here are some examples:
#1
see the post directly above this one.
also
parking spots are disappearing much more quickly today than they were yesterday.
#2
james can negotiate with salespeople more effectively than stephanie can.
i can run much faster than i could before my most recent knee operation. (note that "could" is the past tense of "can", so these are the same helping verb.)
#3
parking spots disappeared much faster today than they did yesterday.
tanya eats more slowly than she did when she was a teenager. (note that "did" doesn't have to have the same tense as the action verb)
What about these sentences:

The economy of china grew faster in the year 1990 than in the year 2000.
The economy of china grew at the same rate in the year 1990 as in the year 2000.

are these constructions OKAY?

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by lunarpower » Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:18 pm
The economy of china grew faster in the year 1990 than in the year 2000.
The economy of china grew at the same rate in the year 1990 as in the year 2000.
those are both fine, although you would probably see them without "the year" in front of the numbers.
(for numbers that obviously represent years, "the year" is usually omitted; on the other hand, you'll see those words in front of numbers that don't look like "normal" years, e.g., Rome was sacked in the year 410).
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by GMATMadeEasy » Wed Aug 11, 2010 1:13 pm
lunarpower wrote:in general,

1 * if you have than/as + subject + FORM OF "TO BE" as the second half of a comparison, then you must have another form of "to be" in the first half of the comparison.

2 * if you have than/as + subject + HELPING VERB as the second half of a comparison, then you must have the SAME helping verb
(perhaps in a different tense) in the first half of the comparison.

3 * if you have than/as + subject + FORM OF "TO DO" as the second half of a comparison, then you must have an ACTION VERB
(or another form of "to do") in the first half of the comparison.

here are some examples:
#1
see the post directly above this one.
also
parking spots are disappearing much more quickly today than they were yesterday.
#2
james can negotiate with salespeople more effectively than stephanie can.
i can run much faster than i could before my most recent knee operation. (note that "could" is the past tense of "can", so these are the same helping verb.)
#3
parking spots disappeared much faster today than they did yesterday.
tanya eats more slowly than she did when she was a teenager. (note that "did" doesn't have to have the same tense as the action verb)
@Ron : parking spots disappeared much faster today than they did yesterday.

Is it correct to say as below instead?

parking spots disappeared much faster today than yesterday ?

I learnt from your thursday videos that when there is comparison, if it is not ambgious , you can ignore the helping verb
in the secoind part . Could above rules be replaced by that simple statement which is more practical and easy to
remember forever (not only GMAT) .

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by lunarpower » Thu Aug 12, 2010 5:15 am
GMATMadeEasy wrote: @Ron : parking spots disappeared much faster today than they did yesterday.

Is it correct to say as below instead?

parking spots disappeared much faster today than yesterday ?
yes, that would be correct.

i don't really like your use of the word "instead", though -- it seems that you're implying that the original version is wrong, which is not the case.
in a sentence with no ambiguity of this sort -- i.e., a sentence that does not REQUIRE a helping verb -- you CAN still use a helping verb, if you want. this is not considered fatal redundancy.

if you want to see an official problem in which such a helping verb is omitted, check out #38 in the blue 2nd edition verbal supplement (the one that starts with "A study commissioned by the Department of Agriculture..." -- i am not allowed to reproduce these problems here).
note, just to underscore the last point above, that it is NOT incorrect to use "than do" on that problem -- it's just not necessary.
I learnt from your thursday videos that when there is comparison, if it is not ambgious , you can ignore the helping verb
in the secoind part . Could above rules be replaced by that simple statement which is more practical and easy to
remember forever (not only GMAT) .
no. totally different issue.
the rule you're talking about is a rule for deciding WHETHER to use the helping verb in the first place.
the rules stated above are rules to determine WHICH helping verb to use, in sentences that actually require a helping verb (or in sentences that don't require one, but use one anyway).
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by GMATMadeEasy » Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:12 am
Thanks Ron . I get all three rules in the right context now .

And Sorry , I really misplaced the word "instead" in my post.

To clarify everything again, it is advisable to avoid use of helping/action verb if there is no ambiguity in the sentence . But one must do use them as per rules above , in case , ambiguity arises.

Following this reasoning, I look at the problem #38 you mentioned from Verbal complement secone Edition.

Answer choice D uses "Do" (than do those rasied in confinement) , and OG mentions that "Do" must be omitted. It should be advisable to remove "Do" rather than saying it must be omitted.

So final take away is "when you don't need action/helping/model verb" , you SHOULD NOT use them . Am I correct ?

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by lunarpower » Sat Aug 14, 2010 5:46 am
GMATMadeEasy wrote:Thanks Ron . I get all three rules in the right context now .

And Sorry , I really misplaced the word "instead" in my post.
good to know.
To clarify everything again, it is advisable to avoid use of helping/action verb if there is no ambiguity in the sentence
not really.
if there is NO ambiguity, then the sentence will be fine either way -- with a helping verb, or without one.
in an official problem, you'll never have to make that decision, because both of those options would actually be correct if the sentence were unambiguous.
Following this reasoning, I look at the problem #38 you mentioned from Verbal complement secone Edition.

Answer choice D uses "Do" (than do those rasied in confinement) , and OG mentions that "Do" must be omitted.
the reason why OG says that "do" must be omitted is not because it's unnecessary, but, rather, because it's the wrong helping verb.
the original sentence is case #2 above -- the helping verb is "will", so the parallel construction should say "will", NOT "do". (also, changing "will" to "do" creates a tense shift, which is another problem since both halves of this comparison logically must occur in the same tense.)
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by lunarpower » Sat Aug 14, 2010 5:46 am
So final take away is "when you don't need action/helping/model verb" , you SHOULD NOT use them . Am I correct ?
no, i don't think so -- just because something is unnecessary, it's not necessarily incorrect. in fact, i'm pretty sure i've seen officially correct answers that contain unnecessary helping verbs; i just can't specifically recall them off the top of my head at this time.

as i've stated above, however, you shouldn't really have to deal with this problem; if you have an unambiguous sentence, which would be ok with or without the helping verb, then there will be some other criterion on which you will be able to decide.
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by loveusonu » Sat Aug 14, 2010 10:08 am
Hi Ron,

Thanks for a nice summary. I used to go by logically meaning however reading above made me realize these are things we follow but never able to document by clear rules. Hats off to you!!!

I face 1 issue though while solving such questions i.e. hidden verb( some called it eclipse rule)

for eg in your sentence: James can negotiate with salespeople more effectively than stephanie can

Sometimes highlighted 'can' is omitted and its often termed as understood.

Could you please help us out in understanding this..
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by FightWithGMAT » Sat Aug 14, 2010 10:42 am
loveusonu wrote:Hi Ron,

Thanks for a nice summary. I used to go by logically meaning however reading above made me realize these are things we follow but never able to document by clear rules. Hats off to you!!!

I face 1 issue though while solving such questions i.e. hidden verb( some called it eclipse rule)

for eg in your sentence: James can negotiate with salespeople more effectively than stephanie can

Sometimes highlighted 'can' is omitted and its often termed as understood.

Could you please help us out in understanding this..
CAN is required in this sentence.

The sentence intends to say that
James is better at negotiations than Stephanie is.

Had the sentence intended to say "James can not negotiate with Stephanie as efficiently as he can with salespeople", then CAN could have been omitted. We need to observe the intended meaning of the sentence and try to find the logical comparison.

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by lunarpower » Sun Aug 15, 2010 9:15 pm
loveusonu wrote:Hi Ron,

Thanks for a nice summary. I used to go by logically meaning however reading above made me realize these are things we follow but never able to document by clear rules. Hats off to you!!!

I face 1 issue though while solving such questions i.e. hidden verb( some called it eclipse rule)

for eg in your sentence: James can negotiate with salespeople more effectively than stephanie can

Sometimes highlighted 'can' is omitted and its often termed as understood.

Could you please help us out in understanding this..
the issue of whether you can omit these helping verbs is not an issue of grammar, or even of parallelism (it's properly parallel either way) -- it's an issue of whether the sentence is ambiguous once the helping verb has been eliminated.
if the sentence is ambiguous without the helping verb -- i.e., the comparison may now be read in more than one way -- then you need to keep the helping verb, and the sentence is incorrect without that verb.

the sentence that you have quoted above needs the helping verb, since, if it is written without the helping verb
james can negotiate with salespeople more effectively than stephanie
... then there are now two different meanings:
1) james can negotiate with salespeople more effectively than stephanie can negotiate with salespeople (the original meaning)
2) james can negotiate with salespeople more effectively than james can negotiate with stephanie (also possible now -- this interpretation is not possible in the original sentence with the helping verb)

on the other hand, the following sentence is not ambiguous:
james is better at chess than dave
... because, if you try to look for ambiguity, you get the following two interpretations:
1) james is better at chess than dave is (correct)
2) james is better at chess than he is at dave (not correct -- this sentence is not only meaningless, but also nonparallel because "chess" and "dave" are not parallel ideas)
... so this one is ok without the helping verb.
note that it's also ok with the helping verb -- i.e., version (1) directly above -- but you just don't need the helping verb this time.
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by lunarpower » Sun Aug 15, 2010 9:17 pm
@ fightwithgmat
FightWithGMAT wrote:Had the sentence intended to say "James can not negotiate with Stephanie as efficiently as he can with salespeople", then CAN could have been omitted. We need to observe the intended meaning of the sentence and try to find the logical comparison.
this is incorrect; see the post directly above this one for an explanation.

if a sentence is ambiguous, then the sentence is ambiguous -- this is a black-and-white issue.
if the sentence is ambiguous, then it's incorrect for either of the two interpretations. (i.e., there is no such thing as an ambiguous sentence that's acceptable for one of the 2 ambiguous interpretations, but not acceptable for the other interpretation, as you seem to be implying here.)
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by [email protected] » Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:33 pm
Final solution at one place:

Important: The purpose of this post (and all the other posts by me) is to give a complete solution to all GMAT-Prep Verbal questions at one place. Sometimes students have to wade through dozens of posts to get to the final answer. My posts will give one complete and crisp solution required to arrive at the correct answer by eliminating the wrong one. Some of the content in these posts may have been taken from various other sources (discussion forums).

If current trends continue, by the year 2010 carbon emissions in the United States will soar to a level more than one-third higher than were those in 1990, according to official projections.
(A) will soar to a level more than one-third higher than were those
(B) will soar to a level more than one-third higher than that
(C) would soar to a level more than one-third higher than it was
(D) would soar to a level more than one-third higher than those
(E) would soar to a level more than one-third higher than they were

A word about conditionals:

If I meet her, I will tell her a story.

This is called a CONDITIONAL:

In this, we are talking about a "POSSIBLE" future - the action is NOT IMPROBABLE in future.

In this case, use the PRESENT + FUTURE (WILL) form.

So the sentence "If I meet her, I will tell her a story." Means that there is a positive possibility of my meeting her in the future...

Never use double future in such sentences:

If I WILL meet her, I WILL tell her a story. - WRONG.

But we may use the present tense in both parts if the context so demands:

If I meet her, I tell her a story.

In this case, 'if' means 'whenever'... this is correct construction.

***

If I met her, I would tell her a story.

If I were to meet her, I would tell her a story.

Were I to meet her, I would tell her a story.

All of these forms mean the same thing... there is no preference for one to another.

Even this form denotes FUTURE.

In this, we are talking about an almost "IMPOSSIBLE" future - the action is IMPROBABLE in future.

In this case, use the

PAST + WOULD form

Or If + were + would form

Or Were + Would form....

So the sentence "If I met her, I would tell her a story." Means that there is a hardly any possibility of my meeting her in the future...

SIMILARLY the sentence "If I were to meet her, I would tell her a story." Means that there is a hardly any possibility of my meeting her in the future...

Similarly the sentence "Were I to meet her, I would tell her a story." Means that there is a hardly any possibility of my meeting her in the future...

In all "wish" sentence, the above structures are used.

****

If I had met her, I would have / could have told her a story.

≡ Had I met her, I would have / could have told her a story.

This sentence is not about FUTURE... this is about PAST that could not happen...

We always use

"If + had + would / could have" form OR

"HAD + would / could have" form here

In the given sentence, we are talking about 'future' with respect to 'present'. In this case, 'will' is the correct usage. 'Would' is correct when the future is talked about with respect to 'past'. This eliminates C, D, and E.

Here the comparison is for the levels ... so 'will soar to a level more than one-third higher than that (the level) in 1990 ... brings out the correct comparison in B.

Choice A uses 'those (plural)' to refer to 'level (singular)' ... wrong. Also, A is not parallel ('were' is not parallel to any preceding word).

B: correct
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by gmat62 » Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:17 am
HI RON
i read this statement of yours :
* if you have than/as + subject + HELPING VERB as the second half of a comparison, then you must have the SAME helping verb (perhaps in a different tense) in the first half of the comparison.
And if i use it to solve these two questions then i find the answer in these questions violates this rule.kindly tell me how do i reconcile this

questions 1: Researchers are studying plastics that dissolve at different rates, and they are finding that the so-called "quick disintegration" plastics are taking more time to deteriorate than they originally seemed.

A. they originally seemed
B. they seemed originally
C. it seemed that they would originally
D. it originally seemed
E. it originally seemed they would

question 2 : Because of the multiplier effect inherent in any unlimited-transaction economy, the spending of one dollar typically generates several times the gross income in such an economy than in a single- or limited-transaction economy.

A)typically generates several times the gross income in such an economy than
B)typically generates several times the gross income in such an economy than it would
C)typically generates several times as much gross income in such an economy as though
D)in such an economy typically generates several times as much gross income as the spending of one dollar would
E)in such an economy typically generates several times the gross income than

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by lunarpower » Sat Sep 06, 2014 6:58 pm
That statement is admittedly a bit too strong. If you see a helping verb in the second part of a comparison, you should look for (in order)
1/ the same helping verb;
2/ the main verb that the helping verb goes with;
3/ whichever choice looks most like the other part.

All of this is, of course, subject to intended meaning. If something doesn't make sense, then parallelism is irrelevant; nonsense is nonsense.

By #2, I mean things like the following:
Rebecca, a long-distance runner, regularly eats more in a single meal than I can in a whole day.
("can" goes with "eat")
If there's no other choice with "can", this is perfectly acceptable.

At the end of the day, just remember that this is a "beauty contest" among the given answer choices. It's unwise (and nearly impossible)--but, fortunately, unnecessary--to try to construct rules for how to write every comparison sentence.
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by lunarpower » Sat Sep 06, 2014 6:59 pm
That statement is admittedly a bit too strong. If you see a helping verb in the second part of a comparison, you should look for (in order)
1/ the same helping verb;
2/ the main verb that the helping verb goes with;
3/ whichever choice looks most like the other part.

All of this is, of course, subject to intended meaning. If something doesn't make sense, then parallelism is irrelevant; nonsense is nonsense.

By #2, I mean things like the following:
Rebecca, a long-distance runner, regularly eats more in a single meal than I can in a whole day.
("can" goes with "eat")
If there's no other choice with "can", this is perfectly acceptable.

At the end of the day, just remember that this is a "beauty contest" among the given answer choices. It's unwise (and nearly impossible)--but, fortunately, unnecessary--to try to construct rules for how to write every comparison sentence.
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.

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