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Proper Usage of With?

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Proper Usage of With?

by gkumar » Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:27 am
In reviewing the Idioms List in ManhattanGMAT's SC Book, I had a hard time trying to understand why the following WRONG statement is considered WRONG:

Usage of WITH
RIGHT: The lions growled, WITH their fur STANDING on end
WRONG: WITH only 25% of the student body, seniors get 50% of the resources

Can anyone clarify why the WRONG statement containing "Seniors" is grammatically incorrect?
Rules of WITH

With is a preposition.
https://www.englishclub.com/grammar/prep ... s-rule.htm

A preposition is followed by a "noun". It is never followed by a verb.

By "noun" we include:

* noun (dog, money, love)
* proper noun (name) (Bangkok, Mary)
* pronoun (you, him, us)
* noun group (my first job)
* gerund (swimming)

A preposition cannot be followed by a verb. If we want to follow a preposition by a verb, we must use the "-ing" form which is really a gerund or verb in noun form.
So for the first sentence:

<Subject+Verb: The lions growled> + <preposition: with> + <Noun group: their fur standing on end>

Original: The lions growled, WITH their hair standing on end
Structure: The lions growled, WITH hair standing

For the 2nd sentence it should not work, but I am not sure how:

<Subject + Verb: With only 25% of the student body>
Original: WITH only 25% of the student body, seniors get 50% of the resources
Transposing Sentence: Seniors get 50% of the resources, WITH only 25% of the student body
Structure: Seniors get, WITH only 25%
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by Stacey Koprince » Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:59 am
First, just FYI, the example you ask about is in the "idiom" portion of the book, which means there isn't necessarily a distinct grammar rule for these - that's just how the language works, and we're supposed to memorize it.

Generally speaking, when you have a "with" modifier set off with a comma, the modifier is usually functioning as an adverbial modifier, which means it modifies the entire clause it is touching, and it usually provides some additional commentary about that clause.

So, in the first case, while the lions are growling, their fur is also standing on end - the "with" modifier about the fur is giving us extra info about when the lions are growling.

That's not quite what's going on in the second sentence. The meaning is more like "though the seniors compose only 25% of the student body, they get 50% of the resources." The first part is not additional information about or an example related to the main clause. Instead, it is part of a contrast being made between the two parts of the sentence.

The other problem with the "wrong" sentence is that it is ambiguous. What does "with only 25% of the student body" mean? The seniors are using 25% of the student body - maybe the freshmen? - to get 50% of the resources? Or the seniors are, themselves, 25% of the student body?
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Makes good sense!

by gkumar » Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:22 am
Thanks Stacey! That makes a lot of sense.
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by winyoo » Tue Oct 13, 2009 1:24 am
Sorry I'm still not clear.
According to the touch rule, noun modifier will modify noun that touch it.

"WITH only 25% of the student body, seniors get 50% of the resources"

Therefore, this preposition phrase must modifies seniors. Am I right? Please explain.
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by gkumar » Tue Oct 13, 2009 1:48 am
What touch rule are you referring to?

With ..., (noun) depicts a (noun) being modified by a prepositional modifier "with ....".

also I don't believe gerund modifiers have to be adjacent to the noun. But it should modify the subject and not the object.

Can someone clarify?
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by maihuna » Tue Oct 13, 2009 5:18 am
1. Accompanying: He came with her; I have my keys with me.
2. Having; containing: Here is a book with a map of the island.
3. By means of; using: I repaired the shoes with glue.
4. Manner: with pleasure; with ease; with difficulty
5. Because of: We were paralyzed with fear.

some more:
=================
with impunity: without risk of injury or punishment
with the naked eye: without using a magnifying lens
with no strings attached: (of help given) with no
conditions; to be used freely
take with a pinch of salt: not believe completely
with regard to: concerning; about
with respect to: concerning; about
tarred with the same brush: having the same faults
with a vengeance: very much; more than usual
Charged up again to beat the beast :)
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by maihuna » Tue Oct 13, 2009 5:25 am
4. Adjectives and verbs in the passive voice followed by prepositions
============================================
With
acquainted with affiliated with
associated with besieged with
compared with compatible with
confronted with consistent with
covered with cursed with
exasperated with familiar with
finished with identified with
infatuated with patient with
pleased with satisfied with
synonymous with threatened with
5. Verbs followed by prepositions
=====================================
With
agree with associate with
collaborate with combine with
communicate with comply with
concur with consort with
contend with cooperate with
cope with correspond with
flirt with mingle with
share with sympathize with
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by gkumar » Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:37 am
I think contextual meaning is also important too.
WITH does NOT SHOW CONTRAST, which provides better clarity to the sentence.

"WITH 25% of the student body, Seniors..." introduces AMBIGUITY.

The seniors are using 25% of the student body - maybe the freshmen? - to get 50% of the resources? Or the seniors are, themselves, 25% of the student body?

I think the combination of these two factors causes WITH to be incorrect, and not the modification of WITH itself with the touch rule.

Also I would be cautious of relying on grammar rules that are not directly related to GMAT as rules of English grammar and GMAT grammar may not be one and the same.
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by maihuna » Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:47 am
gkumar wrote: Also I would be cautious of relying on grammar rules that are not directly related to GMAT as rules of English grammar and GMAT grammar may not be one and the same.
You be cautious or do whatever that please you, but keep this in your mind that GMAT idiom nothing but correct use of preposition, show me single important topic for idiom that doesn't involves preposition. Knowing grammar or for that matter memorizing grammar is not like carrying poison that accidently it will harm you in gmat. No concept of grammar is incorrect in gmat land as long as it is formal, and most of the good grammar books tell you what is formal what is informal...hehehehehe...my own thoughts...seeing the madness to manhattan sc...
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by Stacey Koprince » Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:42 am
Sorry I'm still not clear.
According to the touch rule, noun modifier will modify noun that touch it.

"WITH only 25% of the student body, seniors get 50% of the resources"

Therefore, this preposition phrase must modifies seniors. Am I right? Please explain.
Take a more careful look at my original explanation. This "comma with" setup is NOT a noun modifier. And naturally, because it is not a noun modifier, it does not need to follow noun modifier rules. :)
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by tanviet » Sun Nov 01, 2009 1:25 am
"with phrase" can modify a noun as in second example. but the logic, not grammar, in the second example is wrong.
in this case, "with phrase" must be close to the noun.

"comma+with phrase" normally modify previous clause, and so is adverbial.This structure must be placed logically in the sentence.
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