Following: Sc4

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Jatinder: Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts; Posts: 280; Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 4:18 am; Thanked: 5 times; GMAT Score:610

by Jatinder » Mon Nov 03, 2008 9:27 pm

The question discussed in the following link needs further discussion
https://www.beatthegmat.com/following-sc4-t22127.html

I am typing the question below as requested by Stacey

Aerugo, also known as verdigris, is the green bloom visible on many copper items, and is produced, like iron rust, over the course of time by the exposure of the metal to the oxygen in the atmosphere.

a) visible on many copper items, and is produced
b) that is visible on many copper items, and which produces
c) visible on many copper items, and produces
d) that is visible on many copper items, and that produces
e) which is visible on many copper items, and which produced

I chose E

Doubt: the oficial answer A violates the comma rule: If the subject does not appear in front of the second verb,
do not use a comma.

(I have seen the rule is maintained in the OG questions such as Q 81 (Yellow book OG11))

Pls explain in detail. Should i keep this rule in mind while attacking the questions or not ?

Last edited by Jatinder on Mon Nov 03, 2008 10:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Source: Beat The GMAT — Sentence Correction | Mon Nov 03, 2008 9:27 pm

logitech: Legendary Member; Posts: 2134; Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 11:26 pmFollowed by: 25 members; Thanked: 237 times; GMAT Score:730

Re: Following: Sc4

by logitech » Mon Nov 03, 2008 10:23 pm

Jatinder wrote:The question discussed in the following link needs further discussion
https://www.beatthegmat.com/sc4-t21945.h ... acdbf2cd00

I am typing the question below as requested by Stacey

Aerugo, also known as verdigris, is the green bloom visible on many copper items, and is produced, like iron rust, over the course of time by the exposure of the metal to the oxygen in the atmosphere.

a) visible on many copper items, and is produced
b) that is visible on many copper items, and which produces
c) visible on many copper items, and produces
d) that is visible on many copper items, and that produces
e) which is visible on many copper items, and which produced

I chose E

Doubt: the oficial answer A violates the comma rule: If the subject does not appear in front of the second verb,
do not use a comma.

(I have seen the rule is maintained in the OG questions such as Q 81 (Yellow book OG11))

Pls explain in detail. Should i keep this rule in mind while attacking the questions or not ?

First of all, E can not be the correct answer because there is no comma before which and even if there were a comma, which would refer to green bloom .

b) that is visible on many copper items, and which produces

This is wrong, because it does not produce but rather be produced, so eliminate C and D

E is also wrong because which produced is not parallel with which is visible..

so it is A

LGTCH
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nravinandan: Newbie | Next Rank: 10 Posts; Posts: 8; Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:31 am

by nravinandan » Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:16 pm

I dont see any issue with the rule as such: If the subject does not appear in front of the second verb, do not use a comma.

This sentence is different from Q81 OG11. How??

Q81 is in active voice.

Aerugo is produced .... by the exposure of metal to the oxygen in the atmosphere. (Passive voice).

This meaning is conveyed only in option A. No other options convey the same meaning.

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scoobydooby: Legendary Member; Posts: 1035; Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:56 pmFollowed by: 1 member; Thanked: 104 times

by scoobydooby » Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:57 am

A doesnt violate the rule, the subject is implied before the comma.

Aerugo is the green bloom visible on many copper items, and (Aerugo) is produced, like iron rust, over the course of time by the exposure of the metal to the oxygen in the atmosphere

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Stacey Koprince: GMAT Instructor; Posts: 2228; Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 3:28 pmFollowed by: 694 members; Location: Montreal, Canada; Thanked: 639 times; GMAT Score:780

by Stacey Koprince » Tue Nov 04, 2008 3:13 pm

In general, I don't base answers on commas because the test doesn't officially test us on comma placement. The comma placement can sometimes give us a valuable clue about the intended sentence structure (is this a modifier or a list or a compound verb or whatever?), so I use commas in that sense, but I focus more on grammar than punctuation to eliminate answers (except for semi-colons and colons).

Here's our structure:
Subject, (aside), verb object + descriptor, and verb, (aside), prep phrases

The reason there's a comma before that "and" is to indicate that this verb should match with the subject, not with the descriptor given for the object.

that is: it's not trying to say "is the green bloom visible on items and (is the green bloom) produced by blah blah blah"

rather, it's trying to say "Aerugo is X, and (Aerugo) is produced by Y."

Let's look at the other options:
B: Aerugo is the bloom that is visible, and (Aerugo) which produces... no
alternatively: Aerugo is the bloom that is visible, and (the bloom) which produces... no
C: Aerugo is the bloom visible, and (Aerugo) produces... no, it doesn't produce itself

D: Aerugo is the bloom that is visible, and (Aerugo) that produces... no
alternatively: Aerugo is the bloom that is visible, and (the bloom) that produces... no (again, doesn't produce itself)
E: Aerugo is the bloom which is visible, and (Aerugo) which produced... no
Aerugo is the bloom which is visible, and (the bloom) which produced... no

So A is the only one that works.
The moral of the story: don't eliminate based on commas unless you have nothing else to do. Deal with grammar first.

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Jatinder: Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts; Posts: 280; Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 4:18 am; Thanked: 5 times; GMAT Score:610

by Jatinder » Tue Nov 04, 2008 7:44 pm

Stacey Koprince wrote:In general, I don't base answers on commas because the test doesn't officially test us on comma placement. The comma placement can sometimes give us a valuable clue about the intended sentence structure (is this a modifier or a list or a compound verb or whatever?), so I use commas in that sense, but I focus more on grammar than punctuation to eliminate answers (except for semi-colons and colons).

Here's our structure:
Subject, (aside), verb object + descriptor, and verb, (aside), prep phrases

The reason there's a comma before that "and" is to indicate that this verb should match with the subject, not with the descriptor given for the object.

that is: it's not trying to say "is the green bloom visible on items and (is the green bloom) produced by blah blah blah"

rather, it's trying to say "Aerugo is X, and (Aerugo) is produced by Y."

Let's look at the other options:
B: Aerugo is the bloom that is visible, and (Aerugo) which produces... no
alternatively: Aerugo is the bloom that is visible, and (the bloom) which produces... no
C: Aerugo is the bloom visible, and (Aerugo) produces... no, it doesn't produce itself
D: Aerugo is the bloom that is visible, and (Aerugo) that produces... no
alternatively: Aerugo is the bloom that is visible, and (the bloom) that produces... no (again, doesn't produce itself)
E: Aerugo is the bloom which is visible, and (Aerugo) which produced... no
Aerugo is the bloom which is visible, and (the bloom) which produced... no

So A is the only one that works.
The moral of the story: don't eliminate based on commas unless you have nothing else to do. Deal with grammar first.

Thanks Stacey for the clarification.
What i am making out from this post is to give the Lower priority to the comma rule than grammer.

one more question:
if the answer choice E would say:

Aerugo is the bloom which is visible, and which is produced

then which option you would have selected ?
Here, as the stimulus said Aerugo is the bloom, so whether which refers to "the bloom" or "Aerugo", it would be fine. Am i correct ?

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Stacey Koprince: GMAT Instructor; Posts: 2228; Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 3:28 pmFollowed by: 694 members; Location: Montreal, Canada; Thanked: 639 times; GMAT Score:780

by Stacey Koprince » Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:46 am

Yes to giving lower priority to comma rules. Semi-colons and colons you can give the same priority as grammar, but commas have a lot more flexibility.

I still would've chosen A, even given your suggested revision.

I agree that "Aerugo" and "the bloom" are interchangeable from a meaning standpoint, so that's not why I'd still eliminate E (with your suggested changes).

I'd eliminate it for two reasons:
1) noun modifiers introduced by "which" should have commas before them, and this one wouldn't; since I know the GMAT hews to that particular comma rule, I would be skeptical of a choice that didn't use "comma which"
2) when you use "which" to introduce a noun modifier, the general intent is that the info in that modifier is extra info, unnecessary to the primary meaning of the sentence. You should be able to take out any info in a "which" modifier and still understand the primary meaning of the sentence (even if you lose the extra meaning given in the modifier).

Aerugo is the green bloom. Do I still get the main meaning of the sentence? This is always a little bit arguable, but in this case I would argue: no. The green bloom of what? What's a green bloom? Is Aerugo a flower? Maybe I'm looking at a green flower and a red one and someone says - Aerugo is the green one.

vs. Aerugo is the green bloom visible on many copper items. Yep, that gives me the primary meaning. I know what the sentence is talking about now.

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Jatinder: Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts; Posts: 280; Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 4:18 am; Thanked: 5 times; GMAT Score:610

by Jatinder » Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:44 am

Stacey Koprince wrote:Yes to giving lower priority to comma rules. Semi-colons and colons you can give the same priority as grammar, but commas have a lot more flexibility.

I still would've chosen A, even given your suggested revision.

I agree that "Aerugo" and "the bloom" are interchangeable from a meaning standpoint, so that's not why I'd still eliminate E (with your suggested changes).

I'd eliminate it for two reasons:
1) noun modifiers introduced by "which" should have commas before them, and this one wouldn't; since I know the GMAT hews to that particular comma rule, I would be skeptical of a choice that didn't use "comma which"
2) when you use "which" to introduce a noun modifier, the general intent is that the info in that modifier is extra info, unnecessary to the primary meaning of the sentence. You should be able to take out any info in a "which" modifier and still understand the primary meaning of the sentence (even if you lose the extra meaning given in the modifier).

Aerugo is the green bloom. Do I still get the main meaning of the sentence? This is always a little bit arguable, but in this case I would argue: no. The green bloom of what? What's a green bloom? Is Aerugo a flower? Maybe I'm looking at a green flower and a red one and someone says - Aerugo is the green one.

vs. Aerugo is the green bloom visible on many copper items. Yep, that gives me the primary meaning. I know what the sentence is talking about now.

Thanks a lot Stacey

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sam98034: Junior | Next Rank: 30 Posts; Posts: 23; Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2008 4:46 pm; Thanked: 2 times

by sam98034 » Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:59 pm

How come no one has said D.

Aerugo is the green bloom that produces over the course of time by the exposure of the metal to the oxygen in the atmosphere.

It is the only one that works with the commas rule.

That produces, like iron rust, over the course of time by the exposure of the metal to the oxygen in the atmosphere.

It's the only one that can make a complete sentence, the others don't (E makes a question I think though).

The correct way to say A would either be:

Aerugo, also known as verdigris, is the green bloom visible on many copper items, and [it] is produced, like iron rust, over the course of time by the exposure of the metal to the oxygen in the atmosphere.

or

Aerugo, also known as verdigris, is the green bloom visible on many copper items produced, like iron rust, over the course of time by the exposure of the metal to the oxygen in the atmosphere.

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by Stacey Koprince » Fri Nov 07, 2008 7:58 am

E isn't correct because Aerugo doesn't produce something else by the exposure of metal to oxygen. Rather, Aerugo IS produced (itself) by the exposure of metal to oxygen. You need passive voice here to indicate that something else is producing Aerugo.

The original answer, A, as stated is a complete sentence and it is grammatically correct. We don't need to insert an "it" for the second verb.

I can say: I went to work and ate lunch at my desk. Same thing - the subject applies to both verbs, so I don't need to repeat the subject. That structure is called a compound verb (two verbs connected by the word "and," both using the same subject.

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