confusing SC!!!

This topic has expert replies

GMAT/MBA Expert

User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 768
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2011 4:18 pm
Location: Berkeley, CA
Thanked: 387 times
Followed by:140 members

by Mike@Magoosh » Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:16 am
iongmat wrote:Hi Mike, in view of your observation above, can you please explain how that in the following sentence refers to tool and not private conversation.

Marconi conceived of the radio as a tool for private conversation that could substitute for the telephone; instead, it has become precisely the opposite, a tool for communicating with a large, public audience.
Again, we have the distinction of a vital vs. non-vital noun modifier. A vital modifier is necessary to clarify the meaning of the sentence --- if we leave it out, the meaning of the sentence changes, and the exact nature of the noun in question becomes unclear. A non-vital noun adds extra detail, but if it is omitted, there is no change in the meaning of the sentence, and the identity of the noun in question is still perfectly clear.

Example #1:
My favorite bridge is the Brooklyn Bridge in New York City.

The prepositional phrase "in New York City" is a non-vital modifier --- there's only one Brooklyn Bridge, so if we drop the underlined phrase, the sentence still has the same meaning, and the identity of the Brooklyn Bridge is still crystal clear. The underlined phrase simply provides more information, but it is not vital.

Example #2
I don't see movies that have excessive amount of blood and gore.
Here, if we drop the underlined phrase, we get a new sentence with a new meaning --- "I don't see movies" --- it sounds like the word "movies" means all movies, not a particular category. Adding the underlined phrase clarifies exactly which kind of movies are in question here. Because the meaning is different without that underlined clause, that clause is a vital modifier.

Now, to your sentence, about the good Italian scientist:
Marconi conceived of the radio as a tool for private conversation that could substitute for the telephone; instead, it has become precisely the opposite, a tool for communicating with a large, public audience.

Let's look at the mini-sentence, with only the modifier underlined:
Marconi conceived of the radio as a tool for private conversation.
OK, with the underlined phrase included, this sentence has one meaning. If we eliminate the underlined phrase, we get "Marconi conceived of the radio as a tool," which is at best quite unclear. A tool for what? What kind of tool? The sentence without the underlined phrase lacks any clear meaning, whereas the sentence with the underlined phrase has a clear meaning. Therefore, the prepositional phrase "for private conversation" is a vital noun modifier.

Since it's a vital noun modifier, it can come between the noun "tool" and a phrase or clause that modifies tool. A vital noun modifier can create an exception to the "modifier touch rule." Thus, in the sentence . . .. .
Marconi conceived of the radio as a tool for private conversation that could substitute for the telephone; instead, it has become precisely the opposite, a tool for communicating with a large, public audience.
. . . there is no grammatical problem with the fact that the clause "that could substitute for the telephone" does not touch the noun "tool" which it modifies. This is not a violation of the "modifier touch rule", because the intervening phrase "for private conversation" is a vital noun modifier, which legally and legitimately can stand between a noun and the phrase or clause that modifies the noun. In fact, there's no grammatical problem with this sentence --- good parallelism, good punctuation, everything's in good shape.

Does all this make sense? Let me know if you have any further questions.

Mike :-)
Magoosh GMAT Instructor
https://gmat.magoosh.com/

GMAT/MBA Expert

User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 768
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2011 4:18 pm
Location: Berkeley, CA
Thanked: 387 times
Followed by:140 members

by Mike@Magoosh » Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:29 am
vikram4689 wrote:
Grammar must reflect the logic in every way. If grammar indicates one thing and logic indicates something else, you have a faulty sentence. That's what you have in (E).
Thanks Mike. Also following 2 statements in your post above seem contradictory
(1) That's not a vital noun phrase, and therefore it cannot legitimately come between the noun ("communal ownership") and its modifier.

(2) Yes, you are right, the phrase in (E) beginning with the word "that" unambiguously refers to "communal ownership."
Statement #1 is a statement about grammar --- we have a violation of the modifier touch rule. The phrase "that had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership respected by the Spaniards" is next to "land", so according to grammar, it must modify land. BUT it not supposed to modify "land"! According to logic, it should modify "communal ownership".

Statement #2 reflects this --- according to logic, we know the phrase "that had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership respected by the Spaniards" should modify the noun "communal ownership." That's perfectly clearly what logic tells us, but since as (E) is written, it's next to "land", the grammar alone tells us the phrase modifies "land."

Either way, grammar and logic say two different things, and when that happens, you have a faulty sentence.

Does that make sense? Let me know if you have any further questions.

Mike :)
Magoosh GMAT Instructor
https://gmat.magoosh.com/

User avatar
Legendary Member
Posts: 1325
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 6:24 am
Thanked: 105 times
Followed by:14 members

by vikram4689 » Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:25 pm
I analyzed following sentence using your method described in 2 posts above BUT i am NOT able to conclude "of land" as non-vital. please help
CORRECT: the most radical faction proposed a return to communal ownership of land that had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership respected by the Spaniards
FRAGMENT 1: the most radical faction proposed a return to communal ownership .. whose communal ownership ??
FRAGMENT 2: the most radical faction proposed a return to communal ownership of land .. now it is clear so "of land" is VITAL ( in a way similar to "for private conversation" )

Even in following sentence i find "of snake" as vital
Baby came from egg of snake that was broken during earthquake


Also i looked up at https://e-gmat.com/blogs/?p=1076 and according to that "noun modifier can modify noun NOT closest to modifier provided there is no ambiguity in meaning" which seems to be current case
Premise: If you like my post
Conclusion : Press the Thanks Button ;)

GMAT/MBA Expert

User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 768
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2011 4:18 pm
Location: Berkeley, CA
Thanked: 387 times
Followed by:140 members

by Mike@Magoosh » Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:16 am
vikram4689 wrote:I analyzed following sentence using your method described in 2 posts above BUT i am NOT able to conclude "of land" as non-vital. please help
CORRECT: the most radical faction proposed a return to communal ownership of land that had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership respected by the Spaniards
FRAGMENT 1: the most radical faction proposed a return to communal ownership .. whose communal ownership ??
FRAGMENT 2: the most radical faction proposed a return to communal ownership of land .. now it is clear so "of land" is VITAL ( in a way similar to "for private conversation" )

Even in following sentence i find "of snake" as vital
Baby came from egg of snake that was broken during earthquake


Also i looked up at https://e-gmat.com/blogs/?p=1076 and according to that "noun modifier can modify noun NOT closest to modifier provided there is no ambiguity in meaning" which seems to be current case
Dear vikram4689

I think what you need to appreciate that the distinction between "vital" and "non-vital" is not black & white in a mathematical sense, but to some extent context-driven, and to some extent a judgment call.

In the two fragments:
a) the most radical faction proposed a return to communal ownership
b) the most radical faction proposed a return to communal ownership of land

We are talking about a political party in Mexico and what it is demanding. If it demands "communal ownership" --- yes, that may refer to houses & factories & such, but whatever else it includes, it certainly has to include the land itself. It would not make any sense to have communally owned buildings on private property. Whatever else is coming under communal ownership, the land must also be included in that arrangement. Anywhere in the world where some kind of socialism or communal ownership has been instituted, the very first thing that was incorporated into the socialist system was the land itself. Therefore, when we add the sentence "of land", we are not particularly surprised. We think: OK, they are focusing on land and not on houses, factories, etc. It clarifies, but it doesn't radical change what we were thinking constituted "communal ownership." Therefore, most people would agree that "of land" is not vital.

What you quote from https://e-gmat.com/blogs/?p=1076, "noun modifier can modify noun NOT closest to modifier provided there is no ambiguity in meaning" ---- in this discussion, that is a dangerously misleading suggestion. Once again, if the grammar suggests one thing, and the logic (i.e. what's unambiguous) suggests something else, the sentence is faulty. For example:

Patrica baked a cake for her professor with three layers covered in white chocolate icing.

It's absolutely true, that according purely to logic, we know the phrase "with three layers covered in white chocolate icing" must modify the cake. It's logically unambiguous.

It's also absolutely true that this sentence will ALWAYS be incorrect on GMAT SC. This is an absolutely classic kind of wrong answer. The reason is: grammar says the phrase should modify the noun it touches ("professor"), whereas logic says the phrase unambiguously should modify "cake". Grammar and logic don't match ---> a faulty sentence.

If you do SC looking only for logical unambiguity and ignoring the grammar, you will get question after question wrong. That is why the sentence you quoted above is dangerously misleading for you. I want you to get as many questions right on the GMAT SC as possible.

Does all this make sense? Do you have any further questions?

Mike :)
Magoosh GMAT Instructor
https://gmat.magoosh.com/

User avatar
Legendary Member
Posts: 1325
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 6:24 am
Thanked: 105 times
Followed by:14 members

by vikram4689 » Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:40 am
Thanks Mike, 2 queries

1. Then according to above principle, All of following sentences are INCORRECT ?
a) Baby came from egg of snake that was broken during earthquake
b) I killed the snake with scales, which lived in the burrow at the back of my house
c) Please wash the dirty dishes in the sink, which ARE starting to gather dust.
d) Marconi conceived of the radio as a tool for private conversation that could substitute for the telephone

2. E-gmat people have substantiated their principle by taking a sentence from WSJ. So would that sentence also be incorrect on GMAT
Premise: If you like my post
Conclusion : Press the Thanks Button ;)

GMAT/MBA Expert

User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 768
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2011 4:18 pm
Location: Berkeley, CA
Thanked: 387 times
Followed by:140 members

by Mike@Magoosh » Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:57 pm
vikram4689 wrote:Thanks Mike, 2 queries

1. Then according to above principle, All of following sentences are INCORRECT ?
a) Baby came from egg of snake that was broken during earthquake
b) I killed the snake with scales, which lived in the burrow at the back of my house
c) Please wash the dirty dishes in the sink, which ARE starting to gather dust.
d) Marconi conceived of the radio as a tool for private conversation that could substitute for the telephone
OK, let's see ---

(1) Baby came from egg of snake that was broken during earthquake
This is a truly miserable sentence --- poor grammar and poor word choice. First of all, the nouns "baby", "egg", "snake", and "earthquake" --- every noun in the sentence! --- all lack articles. Second, "baby", unqualified, is an exceedingly strange word to use for the young of any non-human animal. Furthermore, "egg of snake", or "the eggs of the snake", is a horrible convoluted way of saying "snake eggs", which almost anyone would say in context. All of these problems makes it hard to say anything reasonable about the sentence. If the sentence were corrected, the qualification about snakes would be incorporated with "baby" to make something like "the young snakes came from eggs broken in the earthquake."
All I can say is --- when I hear the word "egg", unqualified, just "egg", I think of one set of images, and when I hear "egg of a snake", I get a whole other set of images. I hesitate to use the word "vital" to describe the modifier because I think the sentence has far to many flaws. The corrected sentence would not even contain the phrase "of a snake"."

(2) I killed the snake with scales, which lived in the burrow at the back of my house
Not only is the phrase "with scales" not vital --- it's completely redundant. Redundant is the opposite of vital. Nothing redundant is correct on the GMAT SC.

(3) Please wash the dirty dishes in the sink, which ARE starting to gather dust.
This sentence would be incorrect on the GMAT SC. The phrase "in the sink" is certainly not vital. It's not quite redundant, but it's highly expected, and omitting really doesn't change anything about the meaning of the sentence. The modifier touches "sink", which means it should modify sink, but the plural verb "ARE" refers to dishes --- different grammatical elements point to different referents, so the construction is flawed.

(4) Marconi conceived of the radio as a tool for private conversation that could substitute for the telephone
This is perfectly correct. Here, consider the difference:
(a) Marconi conceived of the radio as a tool
(b) Marconi conceived of the radio as a tool for private conversation
In the first, we have no idea what kind of tool. If the first were a complete sentence by itself, it would totally leave us hanging in bewilderment. By contrast, the second could stand as a complete sentence by itself. With the phrase "for private conversation", we have absolutely no idea what kind of tool, which means that phrase is vital. As we have said above, a vital noun can come between a modifier and its target noun.
vikram4689 wrote: E-gmat people have substantiated their principle by taking a sentence from WSJ. So would that sentence also be incorrect on GMAT
Well, I would have to see the actual sentence. It may be that the sentence is correct, for reasons different from what e-gmat says. Intuitively, I have more faith in the WSJ than I have in e-gmat. If you want to get a good solid foundation in the grammar test on the GMAT, you should look at Magoosh --- we have 200+ video lessons which will clear up all these grammar questions for you.

I hope that helps.

Mike :)
Magoosh GMAT Instructor
https://gmat.magoosh.com/

Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts
Posts: 382
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:47 pm
Thanked: 15 times

by ArunangsuSahu » Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:59 pm
Modifier should be closed to the thing it modifies
"return to communal ownership of land, to what(which) had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership respected by the Spaniards."

OA is (A)

User avatar
Legendary Member
Posts: 1325
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 6:24 am
Thanked: 105 times
Followed by:14 members

by vikram4689 » Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:27 pm
Thanks a lot Mike for detailed discussion,

a) please share your views on WSJ sentence

b) i tried one moew sentence according to vital noun identification method, please see if i did correctly
ORIGINAL: Many tourists gasp when they see the BUILDINGS of New York, which ARE among the world's tallest.
Now i will see if meaning of main clause, without prep. ph., is clear (non-vital) OR unclear (vital)
Many tourists gasp when they see the BUILDINGS ... all building or some specific building ?? so UNCLEAR
Many tourists gasp when they see the BUILDINGS of New York ... now we know which kind of buildings, so VITAL
Premise: If you like my post
Conclusion : Press the Thanks Button ;)

Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts
Posts: 193
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 5:14 am
Thanked: 6 times
Followed by:1 members

by iongmat » Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:52 am
Mike@Magoosh wrote: Now, to your sentence, about the good Italian scientist:
Marconi conceived of the radio as a tool for private conversation that could substitute for the telephone; instead, it has become precisely the opposite, a tool for communicating with a large, public audience.

Let's look at the mini-sentence, with only the modifier underlined:
Marconi conceived of the radio as a tool for private conversation.
OK, with the underlined phrase included, this sentence has one meaning. If we eliminate the underlined phrase, we get "Marconi conceived of the radio as a tool," which is at best quite unclear. A tool for what? What kind of tool? The sentence without the underlined phrase lacks any clear meaning, whereas the sentence with the underlined phrase has a clear meaning. Therefore, the prepositional phrase "for private conversation" is a vital noun modifier.
This is getting tricky Mike. With that logic, in the sentence under consideration, "of land" is definitely vital:

At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution, the most radical faction, that of Zapata and his followers, proposed a return to communal ownership of land

If we just stop at "ownership", it is unclear...ownership of what?

And as you mentioned in your mail, "land" cannot be a "form of ownership". So, in E, "that" really should not be referring to "land".

Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts
Posts: 193
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 5:14 am
Thanked: 6 times
Followed by:1 members

by iongmat » Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:34 pm
Mike, can you please reply.

GMAT/MBA Expert

User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 768
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2011 4:18 pm
Location: Berkeley, CA
Thanked: 387 times
Followed by:140 members

by Mike@Magoosh » Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:57 pm
iongmat wrote:Mike, can you please reply.
I'm sorry for the delay: for some reason I didn't get an email alerting me to the first time you posted, on Tuesday 4/17. As you may see, I discussed this matter a bit in a post above, posted Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:16 am. I'll state the case again.

At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution, the most radical faction, that of Zapata and his followers, proposed a return to communal ownership of land ....

So, we are talking about a social system of communal ownership. It's true, many things (cars, factories, private houses, grocery stores, donkeys, etc.) can be held in communal ownership. BUT, in every single socialist system that has ever existed on this planet, the land was absolutely part and parcel of the communal ownership plan. There has never been a system involving, say, a communally-owned factory located on private-owned lands --- you can just imagine the byzantine legal difficulties such a bizarre arrangement would entail. (Suppose the man who owns the land wants to use it for something else --- would he have the legal right to knock down a communally-owned factory on his private-owned lands?? The very situation violates our basic understanding of the nature of ownership.)

On the one hand, all systems of "communal ownership" seem ineluctably to involve the land, so in that sense, the modifier doesn't seem vital --- it's almost redundant --- it merely places an emphasis on the land (presumably, because Zapata's followers were agrarian and lived off of the land.) It's true, though, it has no commas setting it off, so that's an argument that it could be vital. The more I think about it, I could see an argument both ways on this. (At this point, I've written so many posts in this thread, I'm practically ready to run off and join the Zapatistas myself!) :-P

The problem with (B), though is parallelism:
(B) At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution, the most radical faction, that of Zapata and his followers, proposed a return to communal ownership of land, a form of ownership of the pre-Columbians and respected by the Spaniards.

In this, the modifier "a form of ownership" is an appositive phrase. An appositive phrase must match the case of the noun it modifies. The noun it modifies "communal ownership", is the object of preposition, so the appositive must also be the object of the same preposition. The following variant on choice (B) ...

At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution, the most radical faction, that of Zapata and his followers, proposed a return to communal ownership of land, to a form of ownership of the pre-Columbians that had been respected by the Spaniards.

...would be perfectly correct, but we don't get that as a choice. (Notice, we also had to jigger with the phrase "and respected by the Spaniards" to get a fully legitimate sentence.) In fact, none of the other modifiers have the magic preposition "to", which would be in proper parallel to the intended target of modification, the "communal ownership." That's another reason why only (A) can be correct.

Does all this make sense? I hope you find this helpful. Once again, I apologize for the delay. Please let me know if you have any further questions.

Mike :-)
Magoosh GMAT Instructor
https://gmat.magoosh.com/

Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts
Posts: 176
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2016 11:05 am
Thanked: 1 times

by ngk4mba3236 » Fri Jan 27, 2017 10:50 am
GMATGuruNY wrote:
[email protected] wrote:At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution, the most radical faction, that of Zapata and his followers, proposed a return to communal ownership of land, to what had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership respected by the Spaniards.
(A) land, to what had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership respected by the Spaniards
(B) land, a form of ownership of the pre-Columbians and respected by the Spaniards
(C) land, respected by the Spaniards and a pre-Columbian form of ownership
(D) land in which a pre-Columbian form of ownership was respected by the Spaniards
(E) land that had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership respected by the Spaniards
I received a PM asking me to comment.
I offered an explanation for this SC here:

https://www.beatthegmat.com/mexican-agra ... 40-15.html

As Mike noted, the OA offers the following construction:

What had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership is a NOUN CLAUSE: a CLAUSE -- subject + verb -- serving as a NOUN.
This noun clause is in APPOSITION to the preceding noun (communal ownership).
Two nouns are in apposition when they appear side-by-side, with the second serving to explain or define the first.
Communal ownership = WHAT HAD BEEN A PRE-COLUMBIAN FORM OF OWNERSHIP.
Each noun refers to the SAME THING: the TYPE OF OWNERSHIP to which there would be a RETURN.
If we omit the first noun and the modifiers, we can perhaps see the meaning more clearly:

The most radical faction proposed a return to what had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership.
gmatguru,
with reference to your above post and another post in the link you shared above, got a few concerns -

1. is this an Official SC ?

2. isn't the OA a weird one as far as GMAT SC goes! I mean, how the use of "to" before 'what' correct ?

3. in E, why we can't consider that the modifier "that" refers to this phrase "communal ownership of land", NOT to the "land" ONLY -- could you please clarify ?

Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts
Posts: 176
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2016 11:05 am
Thanked: 1 times

by ngk4mba3236 » Tue May 09, 2017 11:23 am
gmatguru,
any update on my above concerns ?

thank you!

User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 15539
Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 12:04 pm
Location: New York, NY
Thanked: 13060 times
Followed by:1906 members
GMAT Score:790

by GMATGuruNY » Wed May 10, 2017 3:09 am
ngk4mba3236 wrote:gmatguru,
with reference to your above post and another post in the link you shared above, got a few concerns -

1. is this an Official SC ?
Some claim that this SC is a retired question from GMATPrep.
To date, this claim has not been verified.
2. isn't the OA a weird one as far as GMAT SC goes! I mean, how the use of "to" before 'what' correct ?
to what had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership
Here, the portion in blue is a NOUN CLAUSE serving as the object of the preposition to.
This construction is viable.
An analogous example:
Focus on what matters.
Here, what matters is a noun clause serving as the object of the preposition on.

SC23 in the OG16 also includes the usage of to what:
Discussion of greenhouse effects has usually focused on whether Earth would grow warmer and to what extent.
The idiom to what extent is quite common.
3. in E, why we can't consider that the modifier "that" refers to this phrase "communal ownership of land", NOT to the "land" ONLY -- could you please clarify ?
If it is not crystal clear what a modifier is modifying, the answer choice is WRONG.
Private tutor exclusively for the GMAT and GRE, with over 20 years of experience.
Followed here and elsewhere by over 1900 test-takers.
I have worked with students based in the US, Australia, Taiwan, China, Tajikistan, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia -- a long list of countries.
My students have been admitted to HBS, CBS, Tuck, Yale, Stern, Fuqua -- a long list of top programs.

As a tutor, I don't simply teach you how I would approach problems.
I unlock the best way for YOU to solve problems.

For more information, please email me (Mitch Hunt) at [email protected].
Student Review #1
Student Review #2
Student Review #3

Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts
Posts: 176
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2016 11:05 am
Thanked: 1 times

by ngk4mba3236 » Wed May 10, 2017 8:57 pm
While i understand you in your above reply, but still i've some doubt with reference to your following post:
GMATGuruNY wrote:What had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership is a NOUN CLAUSE: a CLAUSE -- subject + verb -- serving as a NOUN.
This noun clause is in APPOSITION to the preceding noun (communal ownership).
Two nouns are in apposition when they appear side-by-side, with the second serving to explain or define the first.
Communal ownership = WHAT HAD BEEN A PRE-COLUMBIAN FORM OF OWNERSHIP.
Each noun refers to the SAME THING: the TYPE OF OWNERSHIP to which there would be a RETURN.
If we omit the first noun and the modifiers, we can perhaps see the meaning more clearly:

The most radical faction proposed a return to what had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership.
here, NOUNS in APPOSITION are Communal ownership of land and WHAT HAD BEEN A PRE-COLUMBIAN FORM OF OWNERSHIP. also, they must appear side-by-side as you've mentioned in your above quote.

however, in the OA, how the preposition "to" comes in between these TWO NOUNS in APPOSITION ? doesn't it make the construction less elegant ?

won't it be better if it were : proposed a return to communal ownership of land, what had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership... ? ("to" is dropped here to make the TWO NOUNS in APPOSITION appear exactly side-by-side)

your thoughts please!