Company's Announcement.

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Company's Announcement.

by goelmohit2002 » Thu Jul 09, 2009 5:22 am
Hi All,

In the below question OG-10, Q250, OG is not kicking out the options C, D, E based on the past perfect not present in the options.

But as per my understanding.....expectation came before actual announcement... so shouldn't we kick out options C, D, E based on this fact only. Can someone please tell what I am missing here ?

Following is what OG says about the reason to reach B.

==============================================
B, the best choice, avoids errors of agreement, correctly uses the parallel construction that x and that y, and uses would rather than will to refer to a promised but uncertain future event. In A and C, singular it after
expected has no grammatical referent: its antecedent cannot be The company, but rather must be the plural profits. Choices A and C also contain errors of verb form, using will where would is required. Choices A and D fail to maintain parallel structure: properly formed, the construction would have that after expected to parallel that after announced. Furthermore, in D, the addition of them to is unnecessary. Choice E illogically uses the future perfect will have improved to suggest completion of an action that will be continuous in the second half
of the year
==============================================

The company announced that its profits declined much less in the second quarter than analysts had expected it to and its business will improve in the second half of the year.
(A) had expected it to and its business will improve
(B) had expected and that its business would improve
(C) expected it would and that it will improve its business
(D) expected them to and its business would improve
(E) expected and that it will have improved its business

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by scoobydooby » Thu Jul 09, 2009 6:34 am
a choice can be wrong several reasons, as long you are able to identify one reason to eliminate it, you are good :)

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by goelmohit2002 » Thu Jul 09, 2009 6:54 am
Thanks Scooby.

If we ignore the had thing....in D...then can you please help me understand the reasoning of OG to kick out D....

OG says we need to have parallelism in D....

i.e. P said that X and that Y....

what is the problem with

P said that X and Y.....isn't this too parallel....

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by scoobydooby » Thu Jul 09, 2009 7:55 am
company announced X and Y

X: "its profits declined much less in the second quarter than analysts had expected"

Y: "its business will improve in the second half of the year"

the company makes two announcements -X and Y. X and Y must be parallel.

announced must necessarily be followed by "that".
so we need "that" both for X and Y.

only B and C have "that". C is out as it uses "it" to refer to plural profits.
hence, B

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by goelmohit2002 » Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:49 am
scoobydooby wrote:a choice can be wrong several reasons, as long you are able to identify one reason to eliminate it, you are good :)
Hi Scooby,

Over here I would like to differ a bit from you.....IMO our reasoning to kick out based on past perfect surely has some flaw in it...

Else this is a very visible split....surely OG would have mentioned something about the same....or do u still think that it is a one off case where OG might not have taken this split into consideration ?

Can someone please tell why OG is not kicking out on the basis of past perfect ?

Thanks
Mohit

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by goelmohit2002 » Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:51 am
scoobydooby wrote:company announced X and Y

X: "its profits declined much less in the second quarter than analysts had expected"

Y: "its business will improve in the second half of the year"

the company makes two announcements -X and Y. X and Y must be parallel.

announced must necessarily be followed by "that".
so we need "that" both for X and Y.

only B and C have "that". C is out as it uses "it" to refer to plural profits.
hence, B
Hi Scooby,

Thanks. You are right....

But can you please tell why only one "that" will not suffice ?

i.e. announced that X and Y.

where X and Y are same as you mentioned above:

X: "its profits declined much less in the second quarter than analysts had expected"

Y: "its business will improve in the second half of the year"

Thanks
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by scoobydooby » Thu Jul 09, 2009 8:40 pm
i guess we need the second "that" to keep the two announcements distinct. one is about past performance and one on future performance

without the second "that" it would seem that the second announcement is a continuation of the first announcement

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by Stacey Koprince » Mon Jul 20, 2009 6:29 pm
Received a PM asking me to respond on the past perfect issue. Interesting question. So the OG explanation simply doesn't mention this issue at all?

FYI - the people who write the questions are not necessarily the same people who write the explanations. The explanations are written at a much later time, after the question is retired, so often the explanation-writer is a totally different person.

As a result, I think, I do sometimes find things that go unmentioned in exlanations when I was expecting them to be mentioned. I recently read an explanation that didn't mention an idiom that did come into play in the choices. I also sometimes find flat out errors, by the way. For the other geeks here, I recently read an explanation that said a certain word should be changed to "participle" form - except that the correct answer changed the word to the infinitive form of the verb, which is not a participle - it's a verbal (a category that includes participles). Okay, end of too-detailed-grammar-rant. :)

On this one, though, I could buy the argument that the past perfect vs. past split is a red herring (there to get us to waste time or cause a mistake). Basically, using past perfect is more restrictive than using past: I can ONLY use past perfect if certain conditions are met, while past is more flexible.

So if something does work with past perfect, then technically, you could also use plain past - though the plain past wouldn't be as "elegant" as past perfect. My guess is that this is why the explanation writer didn't say anything about it. And, of course, note that we don't have to deal with that particular issue in order to eliminate C, D, and E. So the fact that we never have to deal with this, even though it shows up in 3 choices - at the least, that means that the writers weren't trying to set this up as a main issue in this problem.
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by goelmohit2002 » Tue Jul 21, 2009 6:15 am
Stacey Koprince wrote: And, of course, note that we don't have to deal with that particular issue in order to eliminate C, D, and E. So the fact that we never have to deal with this, even though it shows up in 3 choices - at the least, that means that the writers weren't trying to set this up as a main issue in this problem.
Thanks a lot Stacey.

Yes, we don't have to use past perfect Vs past split....here to reach the correct answer.....

But can u please tell can this be a primary reason(i.e. first one) based on which we can straight away kick out C, D, E and concentrate on only A and B as possible choices ?

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by Stacey Koprince » Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:28 am
As I said in my earlier post - in a sentence that could take past perfect, we are allowed to use the less restrictive simple past. This isn't a case in which the sentence tries to use past perfect where it isn't justified. So I don't think we can necessarily immediately eliminate based solely on that. I'd probably decide that I preferred past perfect, but simple past wasn't technically wrong, so now I have to go look at other stuff... but, if I have to guess, I'll guess a past perfect option.
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by goelmohit2002 » Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:41 pm
Stacey Koprince wrote:As I said in my earlier post - in a sentence that could take past perfect, we are allowed to use the less restrictive simple past.
Hi Stacey,

Thanks a lot.

But Manhattan SC guide say that for the sequence of past events, we need to use past perfect + past tense...

e.g. Mary had completed her homework when her mother came.

Here can we write the sentence using only simple past tense...that GMAT likes as well ?

Also kindly tell...why OG is talking about certain/uncertain stuff regarding will/would split....since company announced(i.e. in past tense)....so shouldn't we straight away choose would ?

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by Stacey Koprince » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:34 am
After Mary finished her homework, her mother arrived.

You don't absolutely have to use past perfect - what you do have to do is somehow indicate the sequence of events if there are multiple past events that took place at different times. Past perfect is one way to do that, but there are others.

On the other hand, if you use past perfect, you must be using it to delineate the older of two (or more) past events.

On the tense issue, when a sentence is set in the past tense (as this one is: the company announced that...) and tries to say something about that future, that needs to be in the conditional ("would") tense.

I said that I would help my sister next week-end.

I said, in the past, that I would, in the future, help my sister. Have I helped my sister yet? Nope. So it's still uncertain - anything could happen. Has the company already improved its business? Nope. So it's still uncertain.


That's just one of those rules we have to know. :)
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by goelmohit2002 » Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:48 am
Stacey Koprince wrote:
I said that I would help my sister next week-end.

I said, in the past, that I would, in the future, help my sister. Have I helped my sister yet? Nope. So it's still uncertain - anything could happen. Has the company already improved its business? Nope. So it's still uncertain.
Thanks Stacey...does it mean that whenever in past we will talk about something of future...we need to use would....

Basically what I mean is that...why are we bothered to find out whether the outcome is certain or not....shouldn't the usage of future in past :-) involve would always ? Why to make the things complex by adding certain/uncertain stuff....

Can there be some exceptions where future said in past does not use would and use some other tense ?

Also kindly tell whether in GMAT it is ok to use both the following sentences:

a) I think that it will rain today.
b) I think that it would rain today.
Last edited by goelmohit2002 on Thu Jul 23, 2009 12:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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by goelmohit2002 » Thu Jul 23, 2009 12:14 pm
Stacey Koprince wrote: On the other hand, if you use past perfect, you must be using it to delineate the older of two (or more) past events.
Hi Stacey,

One small related past perfect tense doubt. If say there are three events in the sentence...E1, E2 and E3....and the order is same as E1 happened before E2....and E2 happened before E3...

then can we use past perfect in these type of scenarios in a single sentence ?

e.g. E1 = Mary completed her work. ( The first completed event)
E2 = Mary went to play tennis.(The second completed event)
E3 = Her mother arrived.(The third completed event)

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by Stacey Koprince » Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:23 pm
Can there be some exceptions where future said in past does not use would and use some other tense ?
In English, I'm pretty sure there are exceptions to just about any rule you can think of. :) I'm trying to think of an exception to this one and can't right now, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is one.
Also kindly tell whether in GMAT it is ok to use both the following sentences:

a) I think that it will rain today.
b) I think that it would rain today.
only (a) I think that it will rain today. The question is not whether it will rain later today, but whether I think right now that it will. If I really do think that right now, then we use "will."

I could also say:
I thought that it would rain today.

I thought (in the past - maybe yesterday?) that it would rain today - I'm predicting. And the implication is that it hasn't actually rained today, so I was wrong. If it had actually rained today, I'd say "I knew that it was going to rain today - I told you so yesterday!"
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