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Eagles

by vikram4689 » Sat Jan 21, 2012 1:59 am
Five fledgling sea eagles left their nests in western Scotland this summer, bringing to 34 the number of wild birds successfully raised since transplants from
Norway began in 1975.
(A) bringing
(B) and brings
(C) and it brings
(D) and it brought
(E) and brought

OG says "D) There are too many possible referents for it."

1. Can anyone point those referents
2. Also it can acts a placeholder for the action and in that case construction is correct (although i agree that A would be more precise)
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by avik.ch » Sat Jan 21, 2012 3:57 am
vikram4689 wrote: OG says "D) There are too many possible referents for it."

1. Can anyone point those referents
2. Also it can acts a placeholder for the action and in that case construction is correct (although i agree that A would be more precise)
1. the reference for "it" that I can see here is "summer" and "scotland". But I dont think this is the main point of elimination here - the main point is "and".

2. In normal written english we can use "it" to refer a noun clause. Please refer Ron's take on this : https://www.beatthegmat.com/dental-carie ... tml#441892
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by vikram4689 » Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:18 am
What do you think is the problem with "and"
avik.ch wrote: 1. the reference for "it" that I can see here is "summer" and "scotland". But I dont think this is the main point of elimination here - the main point is "and".
What is a noun clause, it seems an oxymoron to me as clause includes Noun & Verb
avik.ch wrote: 2. In normal written english we can use "it" to refer a noun clause. Please refer Ron's take on this : https://www.beatthegmat.com/dental-carie ... tml#441892
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by avik.ch » Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:49 am
vikram4689 wrote:What do you think is the problem with "and"
"and" is used when we are joining two independent clause. Here we cannot afford to do that. A participle phrase is apt here to tell us about the result of the whole action occurring at the same time this action took place.
vikram4689 wrote:What is a noun clause, it seems an oxymoron to me as clause includes Noun & Verb
a noun clause is a clause that take up the position of a noun in the sentence such as the object,subject, object of a preposition,etc. and so it act as a same way a noun do.

That the GMAT is tough cannot be denied.

"That the GMAT is tough" is a noun clause as it is the subject here. From stylistic point, we can change it as : ( since a short subject is preferred much more than the long ones )

It cannot be denied that the GMAT is tough.

If you still think that "noun clause" is a oxymoron, refer google.

I hope this helps !!
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by vikram4689 » Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:05 am
avik.ch wrote: "and" is used when we are joining two independent clause. Here we cannot afford to do that. A participle phrase is apt here to tell us about the result of the whole action occurring at the same time this action took place.
Yes and this is the reason why A is correct. But same thing(depict result of an action) can be written as D
e.g. a) Sachin scored a century, increasing the chances of winning the match
b) Sachin scored a century, and it increased the chances of winning the match

What i am debating is reason - why D is incorrect - as reason given by OG12 didn't satisfy me
avik.ch wrote: a noun clause is a clause that take up the position of a noun in the sentence such as the object,subject, object of a preposition,etc. and so it act as a same way a noun do.
These seem similar to Relative clauses. I found some info on https://faculty.deanza.edu/flemingjohn/s ... yReader$23 but i think going further into this will be deviating from GMAT. So going back from where we came all the way to here. Question is can "it" acts as a noun to the action happened in 1st clause.
Last edited by vikram4689 on Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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by vikram4689 » Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:06 am
avik.ch wrote: "and" is used when we are joining two independent clause. Here we cannot afford to do that. A participle phrase is apt here to tell us about the result of the whole action occurring at the same time this action took place.
Yes and this is the reason why A is correct. But same thing(depict result of an action) can be written as D
e.g. a) Sachin scored a century, increasing the chances of winning the match
b) Sachin scored a century, and it increased the chances of winning the match

What i am debating is reason - why D is incorrect - as reason given by OG12 didn't satisfy me
avik.ch wrote: a noun clause is a clause that take up the position of a noun in the sentence such as the object,subject, object of a preposition,etc. and so it act as a same way a noun do.
These similar to Relative clauses. I found some info on https://faculty.deanza.edu/flemingjohn/s ... yReader$23 but i going further into this will be deviating from GMAT. So going back to why we came all the way to here. Question is can "it" acts as a noun to the action happened in 1st clause.
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by avik.ch » Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:50 am
Well, a participle phrase refers to an action taking at the same time with the other it modifies.

I killed the snake, using a stick - both happen together, contemporaneous action

a) Sachin scored a century, increasing the chances of winning the match - same as above

b) Sachin scored a century, and it increased the chances of winning the match - here the second independent clause refer to a different time frame than "sachin scored a century". We cannot say whether both took place at the same time or not.

I killed a snake and used a stick - the second clause "used a stick" is not a contemporaneous action with "killed a snake".

So here, we need an contemporaneous action - something that took place with the same time as Five fledgling sea eagles left their nests in western Scotland this summer - and a result of this action.

For your question on "it" - please refer Ron's post I have posted above.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Noun clause : A clause that takes the position of a noun.
Relative clause : A clause that modifies a noun.

That the GMAT is tough cannot be denied.
I took GMAT that is a tough exam.

If you can understand how "that" clause is acting in the above two cases - then ignore the terminology. I am sorry, if I am confusing you in any way.
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by vikram4689 » Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:42 pm
Following sentence is not analogous sentence because in this sentence subject to botht he verbs is 'I'. Refer to this one -
I killed the snake, eliminating the fear in younger brother
I killed the snake, and it eliminated the fear in younger brother

Here it seem that both are contemporaneous actions
avik.ch wrote: I killed a snake and used a stick - the second clause "used a stick" is not a contemporaneous action with "killed a snake".
Ron says 'it' refers to 'what patients eat' which is a noun clause. Similarly 'it' can refer to 'eagles left their nests', what do you think ?
avik.ch wrote: For your question on "it" - please refer Ron's post I have posted above.


It seems Noun clause is similar to what i was looking for - A construction where 'it' (noun) can refer to an action (clause)
avik.ch wrote: Noun clause : A clause that takes the position of a noun.
Relative clause : A clause that modifies a noun.
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by GMATGuruNY » Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:59 am
I posted an explanation here:

https://www.beatthegmat.com/eagles-leavi ... 00111.html

Please note that when it is used as an expletive -- a placeholder pronoun -- the purpose is to DELAY the subject. The delayed subject FOLLOWS the placeholder it and typically is a NOUN CLAUSE with the following construction: THAT + SUBJECT + VERB. To illustrate, here is the OA to Q3 in the OG12:

It was not until 1990 that scholars seriously began studying.

Here, it is used to delay the subject that scholars seriously began studying.

In the SC above, five fledgling sea eagles left is NOT a noun clause and thus cannot serve as a referent for it. The only viable referent for it is Scotland, but the implied meaning makes no sense: SCOTLAND did not bring to 34 the number wild birds successfully raised. Hence we can eliminate C and D.

One way to convert SUBJECT + VERB into a noun clause is to add a preceding THAT:

That five fledgling sea eagles left their nests was impressive, but it confuses scientists.

Here, the noun clause that five fledgling sea eagles left their nests serves as the subject of the sentence and provides a clear referent for it.

Please note that this sort of construction is awkward. I have never seen an OA use it to stand in for a PRECEDING noun clause. Generally, when the GMAT uses it to stand in for a noun clause, the noun clause will FOLLOW it.
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by vikram4689 » Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:42 pm
Thanks Mitch, to summarize use of 'it' as a pronoun:
1) for a singular non-living object
2) as a placeholder for a noun clause

But NOT to refer to any action as i thought earlier. Hence following sentence is wrong as well,
e.g. I killed the snake, and it eliminated the fear in younger brother

************************************************************************
Avik.ch pointed to some information that Ron posted on same topic
https://www.beatthegmat.com/pronoun-ambi ... tml#312862
THE ONLY PRONOUNS ON THE GMAT THAT DON'T HAVE TO STAND FOR NOUNS:
It + description + that + complete sentence (independent clause)
It + description + to + verb (infinitive)

these "it"s DO NOT have to stand for nouns.
ALL other gmat pronouns must stand for nouns.
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by imskpwr » Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:46 am
Thanks Mitch Sir, for the detailed analysis of "it".
GMATGuruNY wrote:The only viable referent for it is Scotland, but the implied meaning makes no sense: SCOTLAND did not bring to 34 the number wild birds successfully raised. Hence we can eliminate C and D.
I have one doubt,"Scotland" is Object of the Prepositional Phrase "in the western Scotland". Is it possible that an Object of Preposition can act as antecedent to a pronoun?
If true can you give some examples also.
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by avik.ch » Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:21 am
imskpwr wrote:Thanks Mitch Sir, for the detailed analysis of "it".
GMATGuruNY wrote:The only viable referent for it is Scotland, but the implied meaning makes no sense: SCOTLAND did not bring to 34 the number wild birds successfully raised. Hence we can eliminate C and D.
I have one doubt,"Scotland" is Object of the Prepositional Phrase "in the western Scotland". Is it possible that an Object of Preposition can act as antecedent to a pronoun?
If true can you give some examples also.

Why ?? I do not came across any such rule that an object of a preposition cannot be an antecedent for a pronoun. Refer this :

Jim may no be elected the CEO by the board because he does not meet its standard :

its --> referring to the object of the prep - board ( this is the correct sentence from MGMAT SC)
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by imskpwr » Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:46 am
avik.ch wrote: Jim may no be elected the CEO by the board because he does not meet its standard :

its --> referring to the object of the prep - board ( this is the correct sentence from MGMAT SC)
"Its" can refer to CEO or Board. Both are eligible Nouns.
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by imskpwr » Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:44 pm
avik.ch wrote: Jim may no be elected the CEO by the board because he does not meet its standard :

its --> referring to the object of the prep - board ( this is the correct sentence from MGMAT SC)
"Its" can refer to CEO or Board. Both are eligible Nouns.
OG Verbal Review Q 29,
"According to some economists, the July decrease in unemployment so that it was the lowest in two years suggests that the gradual improvement in the job market is continuing."

As per the explanation given in OG, "it" can refer to both "decrease" and "unemployment".
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by avik.ch » Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:53 am
imskpwr wrote:
avik.ch wrote: Jim may no be elected the CEO by the board because he does not meet its standard :

its --> referring to the object of the prep - board ( this is the correct sentence from MGMAT SC)
"Its" can refer to CEO or Board. Both are eligible Nouns.
OG Verbal Review Q 29,
"According to some economists, the July decrease in unemployment so that it was the lowest in two years suggests that the gradual improvement in the job market is continuing."

As per the explanation given in OG, "it" can refer to both "decrease" and "unemployment".
You are taking into consideration the object of a preposition as a potential antecedent, right !! - so an object of a preposition can be an antecendent for a pronoun.

here is my analysis for the MGMAT SC example that I posted ( the OG example you posted has some other very very major issue rather than the pronoun ambiguity )

Jim may not be elected the CEO by the board because he does not meet its standard.

- a standard is something that is a characteristic of a board, its a board that sets standards for selecting its employees.
- CEO is a human being who can be characterized with qualifications or characteristics.

Pronoun ambiguity is completely logical in nature, and there is no strict grammatical rule for it. But for me, "its" do refer to "board".

I hope this helps some.
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