1. A cannon shooting dead chickens at airplanes has proved helpful to
demonstrate what kind of damage can result when jets fly into a flock
of large .
2 . A cannon that shoots dead chickens at airplanes has proved helpful
in demonstrating what kind of damage can result when jets fly into a
flock of large.
which one is right?
I think that second one is right. In first one, present participle
phrase indicates ongoing action with respect to the main action of the
principal clause. hence, it indicates that the cannon is still
shooting dead chickens ......Because the present participle used here
does not indicate when the action happen , it only shares whether the
action has been done or not.
had it been......
1.A cannon shooting dead chickens at airplanes proved helpful to
demonstrate what kind of damage can result when jets fly into a flock
of large .
It would have been right. As it indicates that the shooting
..........remains during the time when cannon proved helpful...i.e.
both actions coexist..
it means we can not use present participle when the main verb of the cluase is in present perfect?
present participle and relative clause
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Look out the meaning of those sentences..:
1. A cannon shooting dead chickens at airplanes has proved helpful to
demonstrate what kind of damage can result when jets fly into a flock
of large .
[It's saying an event 'A cannon shooting dead chickens' has proved helpful... And it's effectiveness will still remain, even though started in past, so present participle is used correctly]--CORRECT
2 . A cannon that shoots dead chickens at airplanes has proved helpful
in demonstrating what kind of damage can result when jets fly into a
flock of large.
[It's saying 'cannon' has proved helpful... Note, cannon itself can not prove/help, some activity could do, which is not here.]---WRONG
Hope this help.
1. A cannon shooting dead chickens at airplanes has proved helpful to
demonstrate what kind of damage can result when jets fly into a flock
of large .
[It's saying an event 'A cannon shooting dead chickens' has proved helpful... And it's effectiveness will still remain, even though started in past, so present participle is used correctly]--CORRECT
2 . A cannon that shoots dead chickens at airplanes has proved helpful
in demonstrating what kind of damage can result when jets fly into a
flock of large.
[It's saying 'cannon' has proved helpful... Note, cannon itself can not prove/help, some activity could do, which is not here.]---WRONG
Hope this help.
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I also think you are wrong...!
And just keep posting those above line again and again ... without putting any valid explanation...Could you provide valid explanation please?
And just keep posting those above line again and again ... without putting any valid explanation...Could you provide valid explanation please?
"Ambition is the path to success. Persistence is the vehicle you arrive in."
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Received a PM asking me to respond. Certainly an interesting sentence. ![Smile :)](./images/smilies/smile.png)
First, I'll point out the obvious: there's a word missing at the end of each sentence. Flock of large... birds, maybe?
There are two main differences in the sentences:
1) the modifier "shooting / that shoots dead chickens"
2) to demonstrate vs. in demonstrating
It seems that people are debating only the first issue, so that's what I'll address.
So, we have:
A cannon shooting dead chickens at airplanes has proved...
vs.
A cannon that shoots dead chickens at airplanes has proved...
In either case, the words following "a cannon" represent a noun modifier and that modifier is modifying the word "cannon." Both are properly constructed as noun modifiers. I think you can make the case that either version is okay (though the whole sentence is a bit weird, obviously!), but I can also see the point that bpgen is making.
The most important thing: this particular set-up is not a good mimic of anything that would occur on the GMAT. So let's talk about something else.![Smile :)](./images/smilies/smile.png)
![Smile :)](./images/smilies/smile.png)
First, I'll point out the obvious: there's a word missing at the end of each sentence. Flock of large... birds, maybe?
There are two main differences in the sentences:
1) the modifier "shooting / that shoots dead chickens"
2) to demonstrate vs. in demonstrating
It seems that people are debating only the first issue, so that's what I'll address.
So, we have:
A cannon shooting dead chickens at airplanes has proved...
vs.
A cannon that shoots dead chickens at airplanes has proved...
In either case, the words following "a cannon" represent a noun modifier and that modifier is modifying the word "cannon." Both are properly constructed as noun modifiers. I think you can make the case that either version is okay (though the whole sentence is a bit weird, obviously!), but I can also see the point that bpgen is making.
The most important thing: this particular set-up is not a good mimic of anything that would occur on the GMAT. So let's talk about something else.
![Smile :)](./images/smilies/smile.png)
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okay ma'am...
but still i have a point ..
I think that second one is right. In first one, present participle
phrase indicates ongoing action with respect to the main action of the
principal clause. hence, it indicates that the cannon is still
shooting dead chickens ......Because the present participle used here
does not indicate when the action happen , it only shares whether the
action has been done or not.
had it been......
1.A cannon shooting dead chickens at airplanes proved helpful to
demonstrate what kind of damage can result when jets fly into a flock
of large .
It would have been right. As it indicates that the shooting
..........remains during the time when cannon proved helpful...i.e.
both actions coexist.. l
but still i have a point ..
I think that second one is right. In first one, present participle
phrase indicates ongoing action with respect to the main action of the
principal clause. hence, it indicates that the cannon is still
shooting dead chickens ......Because the present participle used here
does not indicate when the action happen , it only shares whether the
action has been done or not.
had it been......
1.A cannon shooting dead chickens at airplanes proved helpful to
demonstrate what kind of damage can result when jets fly into a flock
of large .
It would have been right. As it indicates that the shooting
..........remains during the time when cannon proved helpful...i.e.
both actions coexist.. l
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I think the new sentence you typed is still okay, yes. I think you're also trying to say that the original sentence 1 was wrong? Not quite sure what you're saying there, actually...
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The only difference I see between the original #1 and your new #1 is the verb tense - "has proved" vs "proved"
There's no problem with using present perfect here - present perfect indicates that the thing is either still going on or just simply still true today. If the "cannon shooting chickens" proved useful in the past, and if that is still true today, then you can use present perfect.
There's no problem with using present perfect here - present perfect indicates that the thing is either still going on or just simply still true today. If the "cannon shooting chickens" proved useful in the past, and if that is still true today, then you can use present perfect.
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your analyses in this post are essentially perfect. nicely done.Rajat Khandelwal wrote:1. A cannon shooting dead chickens at airplanes has proved helpful to
demonstrate what kind of damage can result when jets fly into a flock
of large .
2 . A cannon that shoots dead chickens at airplanes has proved helpful
in demonstrating what kind of damage can result when jets fly into a
flock of large.
which one is right?
I think that second one is right. In first one, present participle
phrase indicates ongoing action with respect to the main action of the
principal clause. hence, it indicates that the cannon is still
shooting dead chickens ......Because the present participle used here
does not indicate when the action happen , it only shares whether the
action has been done or not.
had it been......
1.A cannon shooting dead chickens at airplanes proved helpful to
demonstrate what kind of damage can result when jets fly into a flock
of large .
It would have been right. As it indicates that the shooting
..........remains during the time when cannon proved helpful...i.e.
both actions coexist..
it means we can not use present participle when the main verb of the cluase is in present perfect?
i'm not quite ready to say "CANNOT use the present participle" (i.e., ever) in these situations, but you surely shouldn't use it in any situations that are reasonably similar to this one.
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.
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And....the past participle is used to indicate action prior to that of the main verb.
Here is the sentence..
The decision by one of the nation's largest banks to admit to $3 billion in potential losses on foreign loans could mean less lending by commercial banks to developing countries and increased pressure on misgovernment lenders to supply the funds.
A few intransitive verbs have past participles that can be used as adjectives with active meanings, especially before nouns. Like "increased " .
It means that the pressure that has increased. It means that the present perfect tense indicates the action , increase, in the past , but the pressure to increase in the future i.e. after the decision made by the nation's largest bank.
So how can we use increased pressure?
Here is the sentence..
The decision by one of the nation's largest banks to admit to $3 billion in potential losses on foreign loans could mean less lending by commercial banks to developing countries and increased pressure on misgovernment lenders to supply the funds.
A few intransitive verbs have past participles that can be used as adjectives with active meanings, especially before nouns. Like "increased " .
It means that the pressure that has increased. It means that the present perfect tense indicates the action , increase, in the past , but the pressure to increase in the future i.e. after the decision made by the nation's largest bank.
So how can we use increased pressure?
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Is it reasonable to insert "could mean" before "increased pressure" ? At least this would be harmonious with "could mean less lending".Rajat Khandelwal wrote:And....the past participle is used to indicate action prior to that of the main verb.
Here is the sentence..
The decision by one of the nation's largest banks to admit to $3 billion in potential losses on foreign loans could mean less lending by commercial banks to developing countries and increased pressure on misgovernment lenders to supply the funds.
A few intransitive verbs have past participles that can be used as adjectives with active meanings, especially before nouns. Like "increased " .
It means that the pressure that has increased. It means that the present perfect tense indicates the action , increase, in the past , but the pressure to increase in the future i.e. after the decision made by the nation's largest bank.
So how can we use increased pressure?
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sorry, i don't understand what you wrote in the part that i boldfaced. could you rephrase that?Rajat Khandelwal wrote:And....the past participle is used to indicate action prior to that of the main verb.
Here is the sentence..
The decision by one of the nation's largest banks to admit to $3 billion in potential losses on foreign loans could mean less lending by commercial banks to developing countries and increased pressure on misgovernment lenders to supply the funds.
A few intransitive verbs have past participles that can be used as adjectives with active meanings, especially before nouns. Like "increased " .
It means that the pressure that has increased. It means that the present perfect tense indicates the action , increase, in the past , but the pressure to increase in the future i.e. after the decision made by the nation's largest bank.
So how can we use increased pressure?
i'm particularly lost because you made a reference to the "present perfect tense", but there is no present perfect tense anywhere in your example sentence. are you referring to some other sentence?
--
by the way, the vast majority of past participles should be able to be used as adjectives.
if a past participle appears as an adjective, then just treat it as an adjective (for purposes of parallelism, etc. -- i.e., you don't need another participle to be parallel!)
e.g.
the man dug through several bins of discarded trays, decaying food, and putrid trash to find the ring that had slipped off his finger.
this sentence has perfect parallelism.
the first boldface word is a past participle, the second is a present participle, and the third is a plain adjective -- but all of them are used as adjectives in this sentence, so the parallelism is perfect.
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.
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you could, but there's no reason to -- this sentence is perfectly parallel without a second "could mean", so those would just be wasted words.tomada wrote:Is it reasonable to insert "could mean" before "increased pressure" ? At least this would be harmonious with "could mean less lending".
the only time when you actually NEED such repeated constructions is when they are required by PARALLELISM SIGNALS, which isn't the case in this sentence.
for a quite long and thorough treatment of this topic, check out this post:
https://www.manhattangmat.com/forums/pos ... tml#p25465
(i don't normally cross-post from other forums, but it makes sense to do so for posts such as this one)
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.
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Pueden hacerle preguntas a Ron en castellano
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On peut poser des questions à Ron en français
Voit esittää kysymyksiä Ron:lle myös suomeksi
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Yves Saint-Laurent
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Pueden hacerle preguntas a Ron en castellano
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Voit esittää kysymyksiä Ron:lle myös suomeksi
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Quand on se sent bien dans un vêtement, tout peut arriver. Un bon vêtement, c'est un passeport pour le bonheur.
Yves Saint-Laurent
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