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The normative model

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by czarczar » Thu Aug 18, 2011 12:49 am
mundasingh123 wrote:that depends on the set of words that you choose to start your parallelism from
You chose
suggests that executives ...examine
...............................................use

I chose
suggests that ... executives examine
... ......................they use

The debate about the 2 structures is similar to that between the following 2 structures

I pretend to eat, to drink and to drive
I pretend to eat, drink and drive .

I guess what we meant is that ( ,and they use the set of objective criteria derived from these analyses in deciding) is an independent clause and is parallel to nothing in the sentence.

Has it been (and use) instead of (, and they use) your interpretation would have been correct.
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by mundasingh123 » Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:00 am
czarczar wrote:
mundasingh123 wrote:that depends on the set of words that you choose to start your parallelism from
You chose
suggests that executives ...examine
...............................................use

I chose
suggests that ... executives examine
... ......................they use

The debate about the 2 structures is similar to that between the following 2 structures

I pretend to eat, to drink and to drive
I pretend to eat, drink and drive .

I guess what we meant is that ( ,and they use the set of objective criteria derived from these analyses in deciding) is an independent clause and is parallel to nothing in the sentence.

Has it been (and use) instead of (, and they use) your interpretation would have been correct.
"we meant " ?
Who is we ?
frankenstein is saying something else .He didnt talk about independednt clauses
gmatguruny is talking about mixing subjunctive and indicative .He didnt talk about independent clauses either
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by Frankenstein » Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:08 am
mundasingh123 wrote: frankenstein is saying something else .He didnt talk about independednt clauses
Hi,
I was talking about the same.
If we split this, we get
Ind. Clause-1: The normative model of strategic decision-making suggests that executives examine a firm's external environment and internal conditions.

Ind. Clause-2: they(executives) use the set of objective criteria derived from these analyses in deciding on a strategy.
The first clause is in subjunctive mood and the second clause is a normal one.

You are splitting B into:
1) The normative model of strategic decision-making suggests that executives examine a firm's external environment and internal conditions.
and
2) The normative model of strategic decision-making suggests that executives use the set of objective criteria derived from these analyses in deciding..
But this is wrong because the second part actually has a subject(they) and hence it forms an independent clause.

If the option had been:
The normative model of strategic decision-making suggests that executives examine a firm's external environment and internal conditions and use the set of objective criteria derived from these analyses in deciding on a strategy.
then your logic is correct and this similar construction is used in D, which is correct.
Anyway, Mitch will probably confirm this.
Cheers!

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by mundasingh123 » Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:46 am
Frankenstein wrote:
mundasingh123 wrote: But i find that both the verbs in B ae in subjunctive mood
Verb1: suggests that executives examine
Verb2: Suggest that they use ...,in deciding
Confused :?:
Hi,

B: The normative model of strategic decision-making suggests that executives examine a firm's external environment and internal conditions, and they use the set of objective criteria derived from these analyses in deciding on a strategy.

If we split this, we get
Ind. Clause-1: The normative model of strategic decision-making suggests that executives examine a firm's external environment and internal conditions.

Ind. Clause-2: they(executives) use the set of objective criteria derived from these analyses in deciding on a strategy.
The first clause is in subjunctive mood and the second clause is a normal one.

You are splitting B into:
1) The normative model of strategic decision-making suggests that executives examine a firm's external environment and internal conditions.
and
2) The normative model of strategic decision-making suggests that executives use the set of objective criteria derived from these analyses in deciding..
But this is wrong because the second part actually has a subject(they) and hence it forms an independent clause.

If the option had been:
The normative model of strategic decision-making suggests that executives examine a firm's external environment and internal conditions and use the set of objective criteria derived from these analyses in deciding on a strategy.
then your logic is correct and this similar construction is used in D, which is correct.
Why are you spilitting the choice if you are talking about independent clauses
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by GMATGuruNY » Thu Aug 18, 2011 4:20 am
mundasingh123 wrote:Why are you spilitting the choice if you are talking about independent clauses
COMMA + CONJUNCTION + SUBJECT + VERB implies a new, independent clause.
In B, since and they use is preceded by a comma, we have to assume that use is the main verb of a separate, independent clause and is NOT serving to complete the first clause.

For use to serve as a continuation of the first clause, the sentence would need to say:

The normative model suggests that executives examine a firm's conditions...and THAT they use....

OR

The normative model suggests that executives examine a firm's conditions...and use...
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by mundasingh123 » Thu Aug 18, 2011 4:54 am
GMATGuruNY wrote:
mundasingh123 wrote:
Frankenstein wrote:
mundasingh123 wrote: But i find that both the verbs in B ae in subjunctive mood
Verb1: suggests that executives examine
Verb2: Suggest that they use ...,in deciding
Confused :?:
Hi,

B: The normative model of strategic decision-making suggests that executives examine a firm's external environment and internal conditions, and they use the set of objective criteria derived from these analyses in deciding on a strategy.
Thanks GmatGuruNY , One final question before we can lay this matter to rest

If we split this, we get
Ind. Clause-1: The normative model of strategic decision-making suggests that executives examine a firm's external environment and internal conditions.

Ind. Clause-2: they(executives) use the set of objective criteria derived from these analyses in deciding on a strategy.
The first clause is in subjunctive mood and the second clause is a normal one.

You are splitting B into:
1) The normative model of strategic decision-making suggests that executives examine a firm's external environment and internal conditions.
and
2) The normative model of strategic decision-making suggests that executives use the set of objective criteria derived from these analyses in deciding..
But this is wrong because the second part actually has a subject(they) and hence it forms an independent clause.

If the option had been:
The normative model of strategic decision-making suggests that executives examine a firm's external environment and internal conditions and use the set of objective criteria derived from these analyses in deciding on a strategy.
then your logic is correct and this similar construction is used in D, which is correct.
Why are you spilitting the choice if you are talking about independent clauses
COMMA + CONJUNCTION + SUBJECT + VERB implies a new, independent clause.
In B, since and they use is preceded by a comma, we have to assume that use -- the main verb in a separate, independent clause -- is NOT a continuation of the subjunctive mood expressed in the previous clause.

For use to continue the subjunctive mood, the sentence would need to say:

The normative model suggests that executives examine a firm's conditions...and THAT they use....

OR

The normative model suggests that executives examine a firm's conditions...and use...

Thanks GmatGuruNY , One final question before we can lay this matter to rest . If the first clause is subjunctive , can the second clause be indicative ? Does the second clause need to be subjunctive too if the first clause is Subjunctive . Thanks
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by katy_123 » Fri Jul 13, 2012 12:31 am
GMATGuruNY wrote:
mundasingh123 wrote:
Frankenstein wrote:
mundasingh123 wrote: But i find that both the verbs in B ae in subjunctive mood
Verb1: suggests that executives examine
Verb2: Suggest that they use ...,in deciding
Confused :?:
Hi,

B: The normative model of strategic decision-making suggests that executives examine a firm's external environment and internal conditions, and they use the set of objective criteria derived from these analyses in deciding on a strategy.

If we split this, we get
Ind. Clause-1: The normative model of strategic decision-making suggests that executives examine a firm's external environment and internal conditions.

Ind. Clause-2: they(executives) use the set of objective criteria derived from these analyses in deciding on a strategy.
The first clause is in subjunctive mood and the second clause is a normal one.

You are splitting B into:
1) The normative model of strategic decision-making suggests that executives examine a firm's external environment and internal conditions.
and
2) The normative model of strategic decision-making suggests that executives use the set of objective criteria derived from these analyses in deciding..
But this is wrong because the second part actually has a subject(they) and hence it forms an independent clause.

If the option had been:
The normative model of strategic decision-making suggests that executives examine a firm's external environment and internal conditions and use the set of objective criteria derived from these analyses in deciding on a strategy.
then your logic is correct and this similar construction is used in D, which is correct.
Why are you spilitting the choice if you are talking about independent clauses
COMMA + CONJUNCTION + SUBJECT + VERB implies a new, independent clause.
In B, since and they use is preceded by a comma, we have to assume that use -- the main verb in a separate, independent clause -- is NOT a continuation of the subjunctive mood expressed in the previous clause.

For use to continue the subjunctive mood, the sentence would need to say:

The normative model suggests that executives examine a firm's conditions...and THAT they use....

OR

The normative model suggests that executives examine a firm's conditions...and use...


your explanation is great... but, can you please tell me what is the difference between ",and" and "and,"
this question is from verbal review and it says CONJUNCTION + COMMA needs a separate subject and verb
and secondly there is difference between "decide" and "can decide". why is it ok to change the meaning here?
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by ashg84 » Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:39 pm
Thanks GMAT guru NY!!

I have been struggling with such modifiers problems for quite some time... Your post really helped me in understanding the issue, i was facing..
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by aflaam » Wed Mar 16, 2016 2:17 pm
GMATGuruNY wrote:
finalbattle wrote:Hi Mitch,

Can u please suggest what's wrong with Op B??? Is it the meaning clarity issue or there is some other grammatical error which m missing here????
B incorrectly mixes the subjunctive with the indicative mood.

Subjunctive:
The subjunctive mood is used to imply an action that is hypothetical. In B, examine is in the subjunctive mood. The normative model SUGGESTS that executives EXAMINE a firm's environment, but there is no guarantee that the executives actually will perform this action.

Indicative:
The indicative mood is used to express an action that is actually happening. In B, use is in the indicative mood: they USE the criteria implies that the executives are -- in actuality -- using the criteria.

Since all of the actions in the sentence are being SUGGESTED, the sentence must stay in the subjunctive mood.
Hello Guru,
Can ABCE also be crossed because they refers to executives while these refers to analysis.
A pronoun with all its form should have one single antecedent.
Is my analysis correct?
Many thanks.
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by GMATGuruNY » Fri Mar 18, 2016 5:23 am
aflaam wrote: Hello Guru,
Can ABCE also be crossed because they refers to executives while these refers to analysis.
A pronoun with all its form should have one single antecedent.
Is my analysis correct?
Many thanks.
This line of reasoning is not valid.
they and these are NOT forms of the same pronoun.
they is an example of a third person personal pronoun (he, she, it, they).
these is an example of a demonstrative pronoun (this, that, these, those).
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by bonetlobo » Fri Mar 18, 2016 5:57 am
GMATGuruNY wrote:the subjunctive mood expressed in the previous clause.
Hello GMATGuruNY, I am having slight difficulty in figuring out how the first clause is in subjunctive:

The normative model of strategic decision-making suggests that executives examine a firm's external environment and internal conditions

Can you let me know how this clause would have been framed, if it were to be in non-subjunctive?
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by GMATGuruNY » Fri Mar 18, 2016 7:33 pm
bonetlobo wrote:
Hello GMATGuruNY, I am having slight difficulty in figuring out how the first clause is in subjunctive:

The normative model of strategic decision-making suggests that executives examine a firm's external environment and internal conditions

Can you let me know how this clause would have been framed, if it were to be in non-subjunctive?
Please revisit my initial post, which I have revised.
In the SC above, examine and decide are not in the subjunctive mood but are in the simple present tense.
OA: The normative model suggests that executives examine a firm's external environment and decide on strategy.
Conveyed meaning:
The normative model describes GENERAL TRUTHS about what executives DO:
They EXAMINE and DECIDE.
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Re:

by GMATGuruNY » Wed Jan 20, 2021 2:39 pm
mundasingh123 wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 17, 2011 11:27 pm
 GmatGuruNY
You said
B incorrectly mixes the subjunctive with the indicative mood.
But i find that both the verbs in B ae in subjunctive mood
Verb1: suggests that executives examine
Verb2: Suggest that they use ...,in deciding
Confused :?:
TheUltimateWinner wrote:Using 'they' after the 'and' is perfectly fine. Can you clarify a bit here, please?
Thanks__
The normative model suggests that executives examine
Here, the blue verb is a suggested action and thus is HYPOTHETICAL
examine = an action that MIGHT NOT HAPPEN

COMMA + and + SUBJECT + VERB = independent clause
...conditions, and they use the set of objective criteria derived from these analyses
Here, the red verb in the independent clause is in the simple present tense and thus is a GENERAL TRUTH.
use = an action that DEFINITELY HAPPENS

This combination is illogical, implying that a HYPOTHETICAL action (examine) leads to an action that DEFINITELY happens (use).
Eliminate B.

OA: The normative model suggests that executives examine a firm’s external environment and decide on a strategy.
Here, the actions in green are both SUGGESTED.
As a result, both actions are HYPOTHETICAL.
This meaning is logical, conveying that one hypothetical action (examine) can result in a second hypothetical action (decide).
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