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Supreme Court

by beater » Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:12 am
The Supreme Court has ruled that public universities may collect student activity fees even with students’ objections to particular activities, so long as the groups they give money to will be chosen without regard to their views.
1) same
2) if they have objections to particular activities and the groups that are given the money are
3) if they object to particular activities but the groups that the money is given to have to be
4) from students who object to particular activities, so long as the groups given money are
5) though students have an objection to particular activities, but the groups that are given the money be

OA - D
Last edited by beater on Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Supreme Court

by x2suresh » Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:22 am
beater wrote:The Supreme Court has ruled that public universities may collect student activity fees even with students’ objections to particular activities, so long as the groups they give money to will be chosen without regard to their views.
1) same
2) if they have objections to particular activities and the groups that are given the money are
3) if they object to particular activities but the groups that the money is given to have to be
4) from students who object to particular activities, so long as the groups given money are
5) though students have an objection to particular activities, but the groups that are given the money be
A,B,C -- they refer to what??? no clear antecedent.

E - money "be" -- wrong..

D is the answer.
Last edited by x2suresh on Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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by awesomeusername » Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:25 am
I say the answer is (4)
(1) Possesive modifiers should be avoided. MGMAT states that 80%-90% of the time, possessive modifiers are incorrect when in the underlined portion of a sentence. Also, there's another choice that doesn't use the possessive modifier, so use that.

(2) and (3) They refers to the wrong thing. It should refer to students, not the universities.

(5) This idiom does not make sense.
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by rahulakacyrus » Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:27 am
IMO:D
OA please?
Rahul Madan (Cyrus)
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by beater » Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:36 pm
I eliminated B and C based on the possessive poison rule - that is, THEY (subject pronoun) cannot refer to students', which is a possessive noun.

Is that correct?
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by x2suresh » Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:41 pm
beater wrote:I eliminated B and C based on the possessive poison rule - that is, THEY (subject pronoun) cannot refer to students', which is a possessive noun.

Is that correct?
yout don't have poss..poision in B and C.
student -- singluar.. which exists in non-underline part..
they --can't refer to "student"

poss..poision exists only in A option.
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by beater » Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:08 pm
Oops..I wasn't thinking straight. Thanks x2suresh
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by logitech » Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:34 pm
IMO D


:lol: :lol: :lol:
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by sumitkhurana » Tue Mar 03, 2009 7:02 am
Hi,

1. Can someone please explain what they refers to in B and C.

Does it refer to public universities because that's the subject of the first clause?


2. In choice E, we have a new clause starting with conjunction but. In such cases what should "their" in "their views" refer to.

Should it refer to "groups" since "groups" is the subject of the clause after but. Or can "their" technically refer to any plural noun from the earlier part of the sentence.

Would appreciate.

Thanks
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by sumitkhurana » Wed Mar 04, 2009 9:28 am
can someone please explain these rules, or point to the app link !!

Would appreciate.

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by Stacey Koprince » Tue Mar 10, 2009 10:44 am
I received a PM asking me to reply. Sorry it has taken me a while - I was on vacation until yesterday!

Let's start with this piece (from the original sentence):
"universities may collect student activity fees even with students’ objections to particular activities"

When I read that, it sounds like the universities are collecting both fees and objections together - collecting fees with objections, like collecting dolls with special dresses. But that doesn't make any sense, right?

So I scanned down to see what my other options are. "universities may collect student activity fees even..."
A) with objections
B/C) if they (have objections / object)
D) from students who object
E) though students have an objection

A just repeats the original - eliminate.

B and C use the pronoun "they" so I've got to scan back and see whether "students" (the logical antecedent) is in the sentence. It's not, so "they" has no antecedent (ie, noun to which "they" refers). Eliminate B and C.

Oh, and beater - you were on the right track. "student" isn't in possessive form, so it's not possessive poison, but "student" is an adjective here. "Student activity fees" - the noun is "fees" and "student" is just describing the type of fee. So you still couldn't use even a singular pronoun to refer to the word "student" because "student" isn't a noun in the original sentence.

Sumit - generally speaking, a pronoun has to work both structurally and logically. If you use a subject pronoun in a later clause, then you would structurally expect the noun antecedent to be the subject of an earlier clause. If the pronoun points to one noun structurally but logically it points to a different one, that's ambiguous - and therefore wrong.

So let's look at B: "universities may collect student activity fees even if they have objections to particular activities..." In this part, "they" is a subject pronoun, so the structural antecedent is "universities" - but logically that doesn't make sense. Logically, "they" should refer to students who object to the activities (and that noun is not even in the sentence!). So that's a mismatch and B is wrong.

E has multiple problems. This opening bit that we've been looking at changes the meaning: instead of saying "I can collect money from everyone, even from those students who object," it's saying "I can collect money even though (all) students object." The word "but" later in the sentence also changes the intent - the stuff after the comma is supposed to indicate the rule that the universities have to follow in order to collect money from everyone. The word "but" introduces a contrast, which isn't the right meaning. There are other problems with this one, but that's enough to eliminate!

That leaves us with D.
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by mundasingh123 » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:11 pm
Hi Ron,
Since Stacey no longer helps students on BTG ,Could you explain how to eliminate E ?
Also in B and C , i didnt understand how the logical antecedent of "they "came to be students , why cant it be universities ?
Coul you please explain this since i am having a lot of trouble getting over this SC as if this SC were the only thing to be tested on the GMAT
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by lunarpower » Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:40 am
mundasingh123 wrote:Hi Ron,
Since Stacey no longer helps students on BTG ,Could you explain how to eliminate E ?
in the post directly above yours, stacey already gave an extensive explanation of that answer choice. if you don't understand her explanation, then you must point out what, specifically, you don't understand -- otherwise, all i can do is point to her explanation and say "read this".
Also in B and C , i didnt understand how the logical antecedent of "they "came to be students , why cant it be universities ?
number one, because this is clear from the original version (note that "they" substitutes for "students" from the original).
number two, because this is the only way in which the sentence makes sense -- the issue is that students object to particular activities, but that universities can still force those students to pay activity fees. if you interpret "they" = universities, then the sentence doesn't make sense.
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by mundasingh123 » Wed Jun 15, 2011 4:40 am
lunarpower wrote:
mundasingh123 wrote:Hi Ron,
Since Stacey no longer helps students on BTG ,Could you explain how to eliminate E ?
in the post directly above yours, stacey already gave an extensive explanation of that answer choice. if you don't understand her explanation, then you must point out what, specifically, you don't understand -- otherwise, all i can do is point to her explanation and say "read this".
Also in B and C , i didnt understand how the logical antecedent of "they "came to be students , why cant it be universities ?
number one, because this is clear from the original version (note that "they" substitutes for "students" from the original).
number two, because this is the only way in which the sentence makes sense -- the issue is that students object to particular activities, but that universities can still force those students to pay activity fees. if you interpret "they" = universities, then the sentence doesn't make sense.
Thanks Ron .
I have a doubt regarding what stacey says here
The word "but" later in the sentence also changes the intent - the stuff after the comma is supposed to indicate the rule that the universities have to follow in order to collect money from everyone. The word "but" introduces a contrast, which isn't the right meaning.
I didnt really understand the change in intent Both A and E specify the same thing regarding the condition on which money is to be given to the groups.
A says
The universities can give money as long as the groups that are given the money are chosen irrespective of their views
E says
The universities can give the money but the groups have to be chosen irrespective of their views .
Whats the difference between A and E here ?
Finally how do we understand that "their " refers to universities and not "groups "
The sentence would still make sense if we were to substitute groups instead of "their " in The Supreme Court has ruled that public universities may collect student activity fees even with students' objections to particular activities, so long as the groups they give money to will be chosen without regard to their views.
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by lunarpower » Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:13 pm
mundasingh123 wrote:Whats the difference between A and E here ?
there are two big issues that i see in (e):
1) that choice is structured as "CLAUSE + , + but + CLAUSE", but the second clause doesn't actually have a verb. it only has "be", which is not a verb by itself (except in cases of the subjunctive -- this is not a subjunctive).
2) there is no modifier on "students" (even though students have an objection to particular activities). this isn't the correct meaning; it suggests that students in general object to the activities. the intended meaning of the sentence requires a modifier on "students", so that we are only talking about those students who actually object to the activities.

Finally how do we understand that "their " refers to universities and not "groups "


it doesn't; it refers to "groups". am i misunderstanding you?
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