Supreme Court

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by mundasingh123 » Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:19 pm
lunarpower wrote:
mundasingh123 wrote:Whats the difference between A and E here ?
there are two big issues that i see in (e):
1) that choice is structured as "CLAUSE + , + but + CLAUSE", but the second clause doesn't actually have a verb. it only has "be", which is not a verb by itself (except in cases of the subjunctive -- this is not a subjunctive).
2) there is no modifier on "students" (even though students have an objection to particular activities). this isn't the correct meaning; it suggests that students in general object to the activities. the intended meaning of the sentence requires a modifier on "students", so that we are only talking about those students who actually object to the activities.

Finally how do we understand that "their " refers to universities and not "groups "


it doesn't; it refers to "groups". am i misunderstanding you?


I am sorry for the typo . Its the reverse
Finally how do we understand that "their " refers to groups and not "universities"
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by lunarpower » Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:49 am
mundasingh123 wrote: I am sorry for the typo . Its the reverse
Finally how do we understand that "their " refers to groups and not "universities"
that's the only interpretation that really makes sense -- if you say "x is chosen with regard to y", then, logically, "y" is some quality of "x".

this pronoun is not in the underline, so, of course, you don't have to find its antecedent.
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by vishal.pathak » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:25 pm
lunarpower wrote: there are two big issues that i see in (e):
1) that choice is structured as "CLAUSE + , + but + CLAUSE", but the second clause doesn't actually have a verb. it only has "be", which is not a verb by itself (except in cases of the subjunctive -- this is not a subjunctive).
Hi Ron,

Hoe can we conclude that "be" here is not subjunctive. The sentence says that supreme court RULED. Since we are talking about a ruling given by a court so shouldnt the expression be subjunctive

Regards,
Vishal

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by lunarpower » Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:51 pm
vishal.pathak wrote:
lunarpower wrote: there are two big issues that i see in (e):
1) that choice is structured as "CLAUSE + , + but + CLAUSE", but the second clause doesn't actually have a verb. it only has "be", which is not a verb by itself (except in cases of the subjunctive -- this is not a subjunctive).
Hi Ron,

Hoe can we conclude that "be" here is not subjunctive. The sentence says that supreme court RULED. Since we are talking about a ruling given by a court so shouldnt the expression be subjunctive

Regards,
Vishal
those words don't describe the ruling of the court; they describe the circumstances under which that ruling applies.
to simplify, the sentence basically says, "the supreme court ruled that, IF xxxxx, THEN yyyyy may be allowed"; we are talking about the "xxxxx" part. the supreme court is not ruling that xxxxxx -- it's ruling that something else can happen IF xxxxxx happens to be true. that is not an occasion for the subjunctive.
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by minhchau1986 » Tue May 01, 2012 5:37 am
That is tough one. I chose C mainly because (the groups....the money is given to....have to be....) grammatically. I was missing the "they" part. "they" did not refer to "student" but refer to "fees" which make no sense.
C: eliminated (above)
B: same as C
E: eliminated because of "be". Should be "are" follows with "the groups"
A: Tough to eliminate. I eliminated mainly because on the 2rd clause "they" and "their" are talking different things. "they" refers to "public universities" but "their" refers to "groups" , make sentence not clear. So eliminated.
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by patanjali.purpose » Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:21 am
lunarpower wrote:
vishal.pathak wrote:
lunarpower wrote: there are two big issues that i see in (e):
1) that choice is structured as "CLAUSE + , + but + CLAUSE", but the second clause doesn't actually have a verb. it only has "be", which is not a verb by itself (except in cases of the subjunctive -- this is not a subjunctive).
Hi Ron,

Hoe can we conclude that "be" here is not subjunctive. The sentence says that supreme court RULED. Since we are talking about a ruling given by a court so shouldnt the expression be subjunctive

Regards,
Vishal
those words don't describe the ruling of the court; they describe the circumstances under which that ruling applies.
to simplify, the sentence basically says, "the supreme court ruled that, IF xxxxx, THEN yyyyy may be allowed"; we are talking about the "xxxxx" part. the supreme court is not ruling that xxxxxx -- it's ruling that something else can happen IF xxxxxx happens to be true. that is not an occasion for the subjunctive.
Hi Ron,

This is new piece of knowledge for me. But, I am slightly confused here : it appears to me that E is different from ABOVE STRUCTURE you mentioned.

You mentioned that E's structure is "Court ruled that, IF xx, then yy may be allowed".

But it appears that above structure is possible only when we consider E as "Court ruled that (but) the groups that are given the money be chosen without regard to their views". But, there is no THAT in front of BUT and there is inappropriate use of COMMA in front of BUT, making me feel that "BUT THE GROUPS...THEIR VIEWS" is not associated with COURT RULING. In such a case THE GROUP...THEIR VIEWS is not same as 'IF xx'. Am I missing something here - pls correct me.

The problem I find in E is that THE GROUPS...THEIR VIEWS is fragment as there is no VERB.

Is my reasoning correct - pls correct me.

Could you pls also check the correctness of following sentences
a) Court ruled that Stephen be punished if he commits the crime again (CORRECT)
b) Court ruled that Stephen should be punished if he commits the crime again (INCORRECT)
c) Court ruled that the university collects students activity fees even if they object to particular activities (INCORRECT)
d) Court ruled that the university collect students activity fees even if they object to particular activities (CORRECT)
Last edited by patanjali.purpose on Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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by lunarpower » Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:30 am
But it appears that above structure is possible only when...
in that post, i wasn't talking about the structure of the sentence. (this is why i wrote "to simplify, the sentence basically says..." in front of that explanation -- to make it clear that i was boiling the sentence down to the essence of its meaning, and NOT talking about structure/grammar issues.)
the point of that post is that the meaning of the sentence doesn't allow for the use of a subjunctive here.

there is also the fact that the transitions (even though ... but ...) just don't make any sense in that answer option.
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by patanjali.purpose » Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:33 am
lunarpower wrote:
But it appears that above structure is possible only when...
in that post, i wasn't talking about the structure of the sentence. (this is why i wrote "to simplify, the sentence basically says..." in front of that explanation -- to make it clear that i was boiling the sentence down to the essence of its meaning, and NOT talking about structure/grammar issues.)
the point of that post is that the meaning of the sentence doesn't allow for the use of a subjunctive here.

there is also the fact that the transitions (even though ... but ...) just don't make any sense in that answer option.
Thanks a lot Ron. I was in mid of editing (adding more element) to my post, but you were very prompt - Thanks a lot. It cleared my doubt.

Could you pls also check the correctness of following sentences:
a) Court ruled that Stephen be punished if he commits the crime again (CORRECT)
b) Court ruled that Stephen should be punished if he commits the crime again (INCORRECT)
c) Court ruled that the university collects students activity fees even if they object to particular activities (INCORRECT)
d) Court ruled that the university collect students activity fees even if they object to particular activities (CORRECT)

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by lunarpower » Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:47 am
this sort of subjunctive is pretty much limited to the following:
* requests (the boss has asked that we be here early next week)
* statements of importance (it is very important that you be on time)
* ordering or commanding someone else to do something (the boss demanded that we be on time)
patanjali.purpose wrote:Could you pls also check the correctness of following sentences:
a) Court ruled that Stephen be punished if he commits the crime again (CORRECT)
no. "ruled" is not a subjunctive situation (note that it doesn't fit any of the situations above).
b) Court ruled that Stephen should be punished if he commits the crime again (INCORRECT)
the combination of "ruled" and "should" is either nonsense or redundant, depending on how you view it.
if you view "should" in the sense of "they think that this is what should happen", then it's total nonsense, because it contradicts what "ruled" means.

you can use "would" or "will" here.
The court ruled that Stephen would be punished... -- if the whole thing, including the timeframe of the hypothetical punishment, is all in the past
The court ruled that Stephen will be punished... -- if stephen could still be punished in the future, even though the ruling itself was made in the past
c) Court ruled that the university collects students activity fees even if they object to particular activities (INCORRECT)
this sentence is not grammatically wrong, but it's nonsense.
in fact, the present tense is one of the most commonly used tenses -- maybe even the most commonly used one -- with "ruled", because that's what courts do: they rule on what the law MEANS (present tense).
if their ruling has been overturned, or is now irrelevant for whatever reason, then this switches to the past tense. but under no circumstances can you use a subjunctive here.

the above sentence is nonsense because it's not something that a court can rule. in other words, a court can't make a ruling about what people actually do.
another example:
the court ruled that ron eats cottage cheese every day --> this sentence is grammatically correct, but preposterous, for largely the same reason as the one above.
the court ruled that the company's discrimination against candidates from group X is unconstitutional --> this is a correct sentence, provided that the court's ruling is still relevant today.
d) Court ruled that the university collect students activity fees even if they object to particular activities (CORRECT)
nope. subjunctive is wrong here.
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by patanjali.purpose » Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:19 am
Thanks a lot Ron.

It clarified all my doubts. Thank you for your time and invaluable advice.

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by sarap5511 » Fri Dec 11, 2015 8:48 am
lunarpower wrote:
mundasingh123 wrote: I am sorry for the typo . Its the reverse
Finally how do we understand that "their " refers to groups and not "universities"
that's the only interpretation that really makes sense -- if you say "x is chosen with regard to y", then, logically, "y" is some quality of "x".

this pronoun is not in the underline, so, of course, you don't have to find its antecedent.
I am confused with the meaning of this sentence - specifically around the usage of "their". I thought their is referring to students. Can someone please help -

My interpretation - Court rules that universities can collect student activity fees even from students who object those activities, so long as the groups given money are chosen without regard to their views.

I thought - "their" here is referring to students. Because students are the ones who have objection to the activities, so to make sure that groups that are given the money are not being chosen per students' views????

After second thought, since the "groups" are actually student group's for that reason "their" could refer to "groups"????